Mille Cochin Info

[BluffCountryShepherdess]

Vicky, I'm so glad that you're getting some of Tate's birds in your foundation flock. Since he won't ship, and I'm in Minnesota, I can't get any so I guess I'll just have to wait until YOU're selling babies...

;-)

 

[Krys109uk]

Imo one needs to take care using males with black mottled breasts, most especially if those males have gold or red hackles.

The most logical reason for the black breast is the birds not having columban genes. Without any columbian genes the males cannot have mille fleur pattern on the breasts, they can only have black mottled breasts. The effect of the columbian gene in males is to restrict the laying down of black pigment in the breast, back & wingbow, it doesn't mean the black pigment isn't potentially there.

Breeding from birds which do not have columbian genes does not put more black in the line between the white & gold, (melanising genes do that). It means that one is in danger of losing the necessary columbian gene in ones lines.

 

[BluffCountryShepherdess]

?????

 

[Msbear]

Krys, now Im beginning to understand. My roo (2 pages previous) has very little black on his back, breast and wingbow. I have a young cockerel coming up with black mottled breast w/ reddish gold hackle. I was planning to put him with my girls that have very little black. So, how do we "melanize" the restrictors in order to allow black?

btw, buffcountry's Trouble is stunning and I would be happy as heck to have him in my breeding program along with my beautiful roo I got from Lynne. If you look closely on Trouble's chest, you can see buff/brownish in his mottling. Are talking about pure black mottling?

In Mille Fleur D'uccle, they have some black

 

[faerielady]

Quote:
So basically even if the roo is heavy on the black on the REST of him, he shouldn't have a black mottled chest and be used for the MFC breeding program?

 

[Krys109uk]

I was planning to put him with my girls that have very little black. So, how do we "melanize" the the restrictors?

Melanisers & restrictors are different types of genes. It is black pigment available in the feather which affects the amount of black. The restrictor genes restrict back from being laid down in a certain area or, in combination with other pattern causing genes, cause the black pigment to be laid in a certain part of the feather, thus allowing colour pigment into areas that would otherwise not be colour. For instance the laced wyandottes, that is a combination of at least three genes. Pattern gene organises the black pigment; melanotic ( a melaniser) gives more black pigment & columbian pushes the black to the outer edge of the feather. If one or more of the pattern genes or melanotic genes are missing, the pattern changes.

There would be a few ways of getting melanisers into ones lines. Buff columbians must have melanisers to enable the heavily black hackles, so an outcross to those, & cross straigt back in, ought to help. Or outcrossing to black mottled is sure to get lots of melanisers but also one needs to take into consideration that black mottled does not passing on any columbian genes to offspring so the other parent needs, ideally, to have two columbian genes. If the other parent does not have two columbian genes then, statistically, in the region of half of the offspring will have no columbian genes at all.

So basically even if the roo is heavy on the black on the REST of him, he shouldn't have a black mottled chest and be used for the MFC breeding program?

The likelihood is, that if the bird has a lot of black on all parts then that is probably caused by melansiers, (possibly in conjunction with lack of columbian & maybe not). But if the bird has gold or red hackles, shoulders, wing triangle etc. but is black mottled in most other parts then it is more likely to be lack of columbian.

I hope to prod Ione for some photos of the chests of some of her males.

I am trying to ascertain the significance, if any, of having some but not much red on the breast of these males with mottled black breasts.
I also have quite a few of my jubilee Orpington wannabes which seem heavily melanised; some males with almost entirely black (or blue) breasts but with some colour. As they are still reasonably young I am waiting to see what happens.

 

[amazondoc]

Hey --

I actually took those update photos the other day. Just gotta get em uploaded. Maybe tonight!

 

[Msbear]

Krys, as always, your words are much appreciated. It seems I am in the right direction. I am out crossing with mottled and line breeding as well. I have a cockerel and a couple pullets that seem to have two columbian genes and no melanizers so they will be put with the mottled.

It seems I, too, will have a basement full of babies all Winter

Rusty better get his butt in gear and build me another darn coop!!

 

[wwmicasa1]

Quote:
Melanisers & restrictors are different types of genes. It is black pigment available in the feather which affects the amount of black. The restrictor genes restrict back from being laid down in a certain area or, in combination with other pattern causing genes, cause the black pigment to be laid in a certain part of the feather, thus allowing colour pigment into areas that would otherwise not be colour. For instance the laced wyandottes, that is a combination of at least three genes. Pattern gene organises the black pigment; melanotic ( a melaniser) gives more black pigment & columbian pushes the black to the outer edge of the feather. If one or more of the pattern genes or melanotic genes are missing, the pattern changes.

There would be a few ways of getting melanisers into ones lines. Buff columbians must have melanisers to enable the heavily black hackles, so an outcross to those, & cross straigt back in, ought to help. Or outcrossing to black mottled is sure to get lots of melanisers but also one needs to take into consideration that black mottled does not passing on any columbian genes to offspring so the other parent needs, ideally, to have two columbian genes. If the other parent does not have two columbian genes then, statistically, in the region of half of the offspring will have no columbian genes at all.

So basically even if the roo is heavy on the black on the REST of him, he shouldn't have a black mottled chest and be used for the MFC breeding program?

The likelihood is, that if the bird has a lot of black on all parts then that is probably caused by melansiers, (possibly in conjunction with lack of columbian & maybe not). But if the bird has gold or red hackles, shoulders, wing triangle etc. but is black mottled in most other parts then it is more likely to be lack of columbian.

I hope to prod Ione for some photos of the chests of some of her males.

I am trying to ascertain the significance, if any, of having some but not much red on the breast of these males with mottled black breasts.
I also have quite a few of my jubilee Orpington wannabes which seem heavily melanised; some males with almost entirely black (or blue) breasts but with some colour. As they are still reasonably young I am waiting to see what happens.

Krys,

Here are pics of two of my cockerels with the mottled breasts.

Black Hackles

Mahogany Red Hackles

 

[Msbear]

Wow, Lynne. They are gorgeous. Im hoping that, after a winter of chicks in the basement, I'll get me one of those

eta: I just scrolled up to the pic of the d'uccle and the color pattern on him and your roos are extremely similar! I guess when you posted the chick down comparison a few pages back, it really signified a right direction for you.

Oh! and I went out and checked my young roo with "black mottled chest" He actually has quite a bit of dark brown on there as well... just wasn't very noticable. ...so, he's a keeper!