molting/protein?

[Nomibear]

Holding this spot so I can follow the conversation. Very interesting.

 

[TwoCrows]

P.S. your picky is so cool twocrows!!

HenGirl2002

Thanks.

 

[romualdas]

Raise your own Duckweed 50% protein .

 

[TwoCrows]

Quote: I think it all boils down to how you want to feed your birds and what they are being used for. Meaties for instance need higher protein levels than say the average pet chicken so that they can grow optimumly more muscle than fat and quick. Show chickens especially need higher protein to sport the quality feathers and health that is required for showbirds. The average chicken owner that wants to keep healthy chickens can go the route of bagged processed feed or produce their own feed. If a chicken stands around in a tiny run all day with little to do but eat their layer feed, I would think that a high protein diet could be detrimental to their health and should probably stick to a lower protein feed being that they aren't using up the calories and probably have slow metabolisms. On the other hand, chickens that free range all day long, and get plenty of exercise might benefit to a higher protein diet.

They say that a chicken needs 13% protein in her diet to stay alive. Another 2% to grow feathers and another 1% to lay eggs. The industry holds to this with bagged feeds at 16% protein. How much of this protein becomes available to the chicken depends on the types of ingredients, how it is produced and the chicken itself. The industry is constantly changing the ingredients for optimum cost savings and production. They put as little as they can get away with in these feeds and they have little if any concern for the customer. Only that you purchase the feed.

I personally left the bagged feed behind and make my own feed. I do not care for how the feed is produced, nor the ingredients that are put in the feed. For me, I feel that Soy is the worst offender as they say that 75% of all hens die from a reproductive issue. Soy causes far too much estrogen to be released in the body, thus causing her to lay more eggs. Since I keep my birds for entertainment value, I am not as concerned about the amount of eggs I can get out of one hen, only that she is healthy and lives a long life.

Ok...got off track there...LOL Free ranging chickens will eat mice, lizards, bugs, and any other animal proteins they can get their beaks on. But they do know when to stop with the protein and each hen might be different in her needs. I think a diet of 20% or under is not going to harm any chicken and especially during a molt will generally do them a lot of good.

 

[Pathfinders]

I am very interested in this concept, so have been investigating. Forgive me for a long-ish post.

I have no fixed opinion on this topic as I'm still in the information-gathering phase, but I'm leaning toward a higher-percentage of protein than is generally recommend for laying birds with the idea that I can adjust the protein percentage with whole grains. I'm going to repeat some things I've either read and hope I can do that without seeming argumentative or judgmental ... I'm really just trying to get a grip on the information so I can do right by my birds. (And for full disclosure, I've been feeding my laying flock commercial layer pellets that are about 16% protein with additional calcium on the side, but also put out some all-purpose poultry food that I believe is 20% protein as I've always got chicks around ... I'm feeding the mature turkeys the all-purpose poultry food even though the feeding charts indicate I could be feeding them a lot less protein at this stage (this is just because we've been lazy about switching over to something else) ... the ducks get some & some. HOWEVER ... We're switching everyone over to the all-purpose flock ration at 19-20% protein, with the calcium on the side AND we do give them some scratch grains which are about 9% protein ... all the birds have forage ... and now that they're molting I occasionally supplement with either scrambled eggs or buttermilk-soaked cat kibble ... and I'm considering offering cooked meat/offal) ...

... SO ...

I've spoken to a custom organic feed mill about making an all-purpose high-protein & nutrient/pro&prebiotic poultry pellet that I could "cut" with whole grains to achieve different percentages of protein for different types/ages of birds (turkeys, chickens, ducks ... from hatch on up) -- I could grow some of the whole grains I cut that with, or get the grains right off the combine, so this could be a big savings if the base pellet is affordable. Among many, many considerations for implementing that type of feeding plan for a diverse flock, we spoke about my concern over offering any bird too much protein, and I quoted various things I've read here at BYC that "too much protein is not good." I was told the "too much protein" idea is a "myth," their word not mine, and that excess protein is excreted without damaging the birds organs or confusing the bird's growth. So I've been trying to track down the science on this idea ... the general science of protein percentages and poultry health.

I also spoke with a nutrition consultant for a larger feed company, and was advised that their all purpose poultry ration at 19% would be a better choice for my situation than any of their higher-protein options (mostly rations for starting meat birds). I asked, but was not told, if this was because of the "better" supplements in the 19% food compared to the higher percentage foods. I have a suspicion the higher-protein-percentage meat bird starter rations don't have as many added nutrients because those birds aren't expected to live very long -- phrased differently, my suspicion is that meat bird feeds aren't designed for long-term health maintenance, but that's just a hunch.

As I understand it and someone else has written about previously in this thread, the goal of industrial poultry keeping is to feed with the best economy ... so the expensive things like proteins (and added nutrients) are offered at the lowest useful percentages to achieve an acceptable level of health at various stages in life or for different types of flocks (layers vs. breeders vs. meaties, for example). It's about optimizing efficiency over a limited life-span of an industrial bird, not about optimizing long-term health. So these "feed efficiency" type charts are what I find when I research. There is quite a tradition of these charts. So far they're all I can find.

Converse to the "too much protein is not good" warning I've read several times here at BYC, over in the Heritage thread I read a recommendation to offer the special LF Heritage birds a very high percentage feed at all times ... if I remember correctly it was somewhere between 24% & 30% ... the highest protein poultry feed I'm familiar with is turkey starter or game bird feed at 28-30% protein. I'm feeling too lazy to go check that recommendation. Someone else recommends feeding pullets and cockerels of large heritage birds a very low protein feed ... I think it was 9%, which is more like scratch grains ... because they want their big birds to grow nice and slow so they live longer.

Big Sigh. Obviously the conversation about protein percentages extends beyond molting, but a thread on molting is as good a place to ask these questions (again) as any.

When I feed the scrambled egg or buttermilk cat food "treats," I can barely put the containers on the ground before the treats are gone. I can't fathom a quantity that could last 10 whole minutes. I'm sure they could inhale a lot. I use several containers with the hope that maybe everyone gets a chance.

Great post!

I can't speak to other heritage breeds than the one I'm working with (Buckeyes) but it's been my experience with breeding them for the past seven years that they do better if they get a) a higher protein ration for the first six to eight weeks (as in 30% turkey or game bird starter) and then a slightly higher protein maintainence ration (19% game bird starter.) Both of those contain animal proteins. I have antecdotal evidence only (haven't done a scientific comparison study) but that's my experience. Healthier, heavier, larger birds. And since these are birds we raise for meat as well as eggs, I want 'em bigger. Not more than 20% above the Standard, but on the larger side if possible. And the higher protein/animal protein feed allows me to get there.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Great post!

I can't speak to other heritage breeds than the one I'm working with (Buckeyes) but it's been my experience with breeding them for the past seven years that they do better if they get a) a higher protein ration for the first six to eight weeks (as in 30% turkey or game bird starter) and then a slightly higher protein maintainence ration (19% game bird starter.) Both of those contain animal proteins. I have antecdotal evidence only (haven't done a scientific comparison study) but that's my experience. Healthier, heavier, larger birds. And since these are birds we raise for meat as well as eggs, I want 'em bigger. Not more than 20% above the Standard, but on the larger side if possible. And the higher protein/animal protein feed allows me to get there.

That 30% protein mark is HARD to hit ... without animal protein ... Long story short, I tried to find a GMO-free turkey starter this spring. I was told that the GMO-free proteins currently available are mostly imported products -- without local oversight and accountability -- and don't test to be what the labels say they are even if they cost a lot more (it tests out to be much lower protein, among other things), so there is no way to mix in all the other things poultry needs and have it test out to have that much protein. And in the USA there really isn't any GMO-free corn or soy any more (even if it is supposedly organic). And even with the non-organic soy protein I'd have to supplement with scrambled eggs to make sure the turkeys got all the protein they needed. So that's what I did this year.

I'm currently getting started with a trio of Delawares. I hope they lay lots of fertile eggs so I can have the broodies in my laying flock start hatching them in squadrons and begin the transition over to dual purpose birds. I'll need to figure out how to get a decent starter for the eventual chicks ... and I'm starting to think it will have to include animal proteins, so I hope I can find that and afford it.

I guess we have to breed to get the Delawares looking like Delawares first ... and that might take a while. But eventually I'd like my Delawares to be HUGE for the same reason you have with wanting your Buckeyes on the big side.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I personally left the bagged feed behind and make my own feed. I do not care for how the feed is produced, nor the ingredients that are put in the feed. For me, I feel that Soy is the worst offender as they say that 75% of all hens die from a reproductive issue. Soy causes far too much estrogen to be released in the body, thus causing her to lay more eggs. Since I keep my birds for entertainment value, I am not as concerned about the amount of eggs I can get out of one hen, only that she is healthy and lives a long life.

Ok...got off track there...LOL Free ranging chickens will eat mice, lizards, bugs, and any other animal proteins they can get their beaks on. But they do know when to stop with the protein and each hen might be different in her needs. I think a diet of 20% or under is not going to harm any chicken and especially during a molt will generally do them a lot of good.

Clipping part of your post ...

Thanks for the great & informed opinion.

You state here one of my big concerns with soy: hormones. It also has some digestibility issues I'd rather not have to fight against.

I have three very practical reason for wanting a pelleted, all purpose poultry feed concentrate.

1) If I start with a high-protein/full nutrient base, I can cut it with grains to achieve different protein percentages for different types/ages of birds

2) Pelleted feeds are less wasteful & would capture the supplements to make sure the birds eat them (the pellets + whole grains can be ground for wee chicks)

3) I can possibly avoid the use of soy proteins.

I'm interested in knowing more about your feed recipe.

 

[TwoCrows]

Quote: To make a really really long story short, LOL, I switched to home made feed to save my FAVORITE hens life. She had been sick all her 2 years of life and I had a feeling that bagged feed was the culprit. Sure enough, my homemade feed has cured her of what was ailing her. I am sure my recipe is not perfect and has tons of flaws, but at least I know what I am feeding my birds and they seem to be doing quite well on it.

I too found it hard to get the protein up to a decent level without the use of some sort of animal proteins. In my humble opinion and just my natural hunches, I think that the over consumption of Soy can cause ovarian cancer in hens. Or at least issues with the reproduction area of their bodies. So I refuse to use it. But Soy is very high in protein. If your birds can handle it, field peas are very high in protein and are used in many feeds now as one of the main protein ingredients. You can also ferment grains as well, which really gets the protein way up and sprouted seeds are supposed to be loaded with nutrients and goodness. I just don't have the time to do either of these and if you are interested in this approach, check out threads in the "feeding and watering your flock" section. These threads seem to always be on the front page. But if you are interested in a simple feed plan, this is my recipe....

I mix together:
2 pounds of whole wheat
2 pounds of cracked corn
2 pounds of millet (I keep parrots as well and this is a mix of many different types of seeds for small parrots, millet being the main seed)
1 pound of rolled oats (I tried the whole oat, but there is too much fiber in the hull and oat hulls are not really good for them)
1/2 pound hulled sunflower seeds

All these grains are ground in a grain grinder. I grind them because my birds will pick out only the things they wish to eat and leave the rest for some other bird to eat and I want them all to get the complete diet in one bite. I only grind what I will use in about 2 days.

After grinding I add protein/vitamin/mineral/ etc. supplements:
To every 10 ounces of this grain mix I add:
1 ounce of crushed Farmers Helper Ultra Kibble for Chicks
1 ounce of crushed Kaytee Egg-cite Egg Food Supplement
1 ounce of crushed dried Mealworms
1 ounce of ground Oyster Shell

I mix this all together and at feeding time, I mist it with water and it turns into a crumble about the same consistency of regular bagged feed crumbles. The water misting makes sure all the supplements stick to everything so that each bite is complete.

The Farmers Helper uses Fish Meal and Salmon Meal along with other plant proteins, along with dehydrated veggies, vitamins, minerals, probiotics and assorted other goodies.

The Kaytee Egg Food Supplement contains 50% real egg, amino acids, fatty acids, omegas, brewers yeast, flax seed, more vitamins/minerals and more probiotics.

The Mealworms are just more protein. I buy these in large bulk on line. The cost of making 50 pounds of this mix is about the same as the price of a 50 pound bag of processed chicken feed.

Because these are all whole grains, and there are no added fillers, the chickens eat HALF of what they used to eat on bagged feed. And because the birds are on whole grains now, since the grains take longer to break down and digest, the birds are able to absorb more nutrients.

This mix is about 17% protein, 5.5% fat and 6% fiber.

I have been feeding this mix for 6 months now and I have noticed great improvements in their health since getting off bagged feed.

 

[centrarchid]

Why grind the ingredients? You are not moving feed through an auger or dispersing vitamin or mineral premixes.

 

[TwoCrows]

I mix the supplements after grinding as the powders tend to fall thru to the bottom of the grain mill and do not get thoroughly mixed in unless they are added afterwards. Grinding everything together prevents one bird from eating all the sunflower seed for instance, or one bird only eating millet, etc. which was happening when I first started feeding whole grains. Grinding everything together seems to stop this issue and they eat everything equally since it is all the same consistency.