Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[sassybirds]

First and foremost- I started this thread for people to share their experience with dealing with Marek's Disease- particularily those who are breeding for resistance. I encourage everyone to share their knowledge, experience, and perhaps support others who are also struggling with how to move forward.

Whew. Okay. I will spare y'all a blow by blow account, but after being a HUGE biosecurity advocate, I recently had a bird diagnosed with Marek's. I had went all out...disinfecting after going to the feed store, never going to other peoples farms who had chickens, only buying hatching eggs to reduce any possible diseases, etc. etc. etc. Yet MD STILL made its way into my flock. It's been about a month...I have had to cull about 10 birds so far. Most of them pullets. Go figure I can only chalk it up to bad luck...after all, I do live in GA, and there are about 10 chicken houses within a two mile radius of my house...literally disease INCUBATORS. It could have came from ANYWHERE. I have gone through feeling shocked, angry, depressed, and now I'm just resolved to move on. I REFUSE to think that a MD diagnosis is a death knell for my entire flock, or to my chicken keeping.

Me being the biology major that I am, I immediately set out to find as much information as I could...only to be bitterly disappointed. There seems to be three different camps on how to deal with MD- depopulate (old timers said to burn the chicken house to the ground with the chickens in it. Not happening.) and wait AT LEAST one year (studies have found the virus to survive for 65 weeks), keep a closed flock & vaccinate any incoming birds, and lastly, breed for resistance. This last group seems to be woefully small....

The depopulation route is not an option for me. Not that I have a problem culling birds, but because the thought of my birds catching MD again, after all the work and wait, is just unimaginable. Vaccination seems like a good route initially, until I found out that the vaccine does NOT prevent infection, only lessens the symptoms if infected, and in turn potentially perpetuating the problem by extending the life of a bird that is infected, and therefore shedding the virus....the be blown by the wind or carried by a wild bird or inadvertently by me. These virus containing particles can be microscopic, y'all. I would NEVER intentially infect anyone else's flock, but what am I supposed to do? Wear a hazmat suit? I would never judge or put down anyone who has chosen a different route, but the only thing that has made sense to me is to breed for resistance. I know it can be done. I know it will be heartbreaking to cull all affected birds...but I feel that it is the best way to deal with this insidious disease. So I would love for y'all to share your experiences on breeding for resistance! Thanks for reading my rant!

Special thanks to seminolewind who heard me out

 

[chooks4life]

First and foremost- I started this thread for people to share their experience with dealing with Marek's Disease- particularily those who are breeding for resistance. I encourage everyone to share their knowledge, experience, and perhaps support others who are also struggling with how to move forward.

Whew. Okay. I will spare y'all a blow by blow account, but after being a HUGE biosecurity advocate, I recently had a bird diagnosed with Marek's. I had went all out...disinfecting after going to the feed store, never going to other peoples farms who had chickens, only buying hatching eggs to reduce any possible diseases, etc. etc. etc. Yet MD STILL made its way into my flock. It's been about a month...I have had to cull about 10 birds so far. Most of them pullets. Go figure I can only chalk it up to bad luck...after all, I do live in GA, and there are about 10 chicken houses within a two mile radius of my house...literally disease INCUBATORS. It could have came from ANYWHERE. I have gone through feeling shocked, angry, depressed, and now I'm just resolved to move on. I REFUSE to think that a MD diagnosis is a death knell for my entire flock, or to my chicken keeping.

Me being the biology major that I am, I immediately set out to find as much information as I could...only to be bitterly disappointed. There seems to be three different camps on how to deal with MD- depopulate (old timers said to burn the chicken house to the ground with the chickens in it. Not happening.) and wait AT LEAST one year (studies have found the virus to survive for 65 weeks), keep a closed flock & vaccinate any incoming birds, and lastly, breed for resistance. This last group seems to be woefully small....

The depopulation route is not an option for me. Not that I have a problem culling birds, but because the thought of my birds catching MD again, after all the work and wait, is just unimaginable. Vaccination seems like a good route initially, until I found out that the vaccine does NOT prevent infection, only lessens the symptoms if infected, and in turn potentially perpetuating the problem by extending the life of a bird that is infected, and therefore shedding the virus....the be blown by the wind or carried by a wild bird or inadvertently by me. These virus containing particles can be microscopic, y'all. I would NEVER intentially infect anyone else's flock, but what am I supposed to do? Wear a hazmat suit? I would never judge or put down anyone who has chosen a different route, but the only thing that has made sense to me is to breed for resistance. I know it can be done. I know it will be heartbreaking to cull all affected birds...but I feel that it is the best way to deal with this insidious disease. So I would love for y'all to share your experiences on breeding for resistance! Thanks for reading my rant!

Special thanks to seminolewind who heard me out

There's clinical evidence St John's Wort treats neurological/nervous system disorders in humans, and some people have used it with success on birds with MD, so if you're feeling up to it you could test that... But of course chances are that the birds showing symptoms strongly are just too weak in the first place. Still, if I come across MD again that's what I'll try. Better to experiment on sick birds than cull, which sounds cruel but unfortunately it is expedient that one should suffer longer to prevent the sufferings of millions. But only if that animal is willing to fight for its life, you can't force them if they're not, they'll die anyway.

If you use a natural-as-possible diet and rearing system, I reckon you will succeed. That's the controversial part obviously, unfortunately... Still, if the conventional means have failed and keep failing, it's only logical to try something different. I have a theory that diseases in America are perhaps stronger than Aussie ones because there's a larger pool so to speak, with a strong trend towards using antibiotics as a husbandry staple, not a rare occurrence. I know Britain and the UK have some seriously aggressive diseases compared to their Aussie counterparts, and massive overuse of antibiotics to the point where they are being forced to return to natural animal husbandry just because there is no longer any viable alternative.

Total nutrition is one of the main 'tools' in your kit for disease prevention so scrimping won't help. Total health is the main defense against disease since we need their immune system to take control. No malnutrition-causing, scrimping commercial layer pellet/mash diets allowed! lol... Seriously though for full health you need at least the last three generations in full health, and then you're onto a level playing field so to speak. If you were using commercial layer feed I would suggest you get a higher quality feed.

My experiences with MD have been very few, and birds genetically prone to leukosis were the ones most likely to get it. It didn't rampage through my flock at all, out of many hundreds of birds only a couple died, and in isolated cases separated by months. The rest simply never looked sick. I brought in birds from dozens of sources, some of which were sick when I got them, from all manner of different genetic backgrounds, locations, and husbandry methods. Some were vaccinated for MD, and they died of something almost identical to it, but apparently genetic. The rest were not vaccinated and only a few died out of them compared to all of the others which were vaccinated --- but that was a very small sample. Obviously not all vaccinated birds die from it; I'm just sharing my specific experience.

The flock I got MD from had an almost total failure rate, meaning they dropped like flies. They were mostly vaccinated, raised free range, but not with natural medications. I was concerned about bringing that disease home but recognized the futility of trying to perpetually avoid it. People were visiting all the time, bringing contagious materials and animals around. The flock I saw decimated by MD belonged to a purebred breeder, and most purebred breeders I've met so far have overly stringent biosecurity and correspondingly genetically and immunologically weak birds.

In my opinion it's quite likely that only the birds bred for resistance to disease, not protected from it, will be left standing long into the future. It's not a matter of IF disease gets in, it's WHEN, and I think some biosecurity measures are ticking time bombs. I am sorry to hear of your experiences but glad to hear you will help attack the disease in about the only way we can. Maybe sometime in future a miraculous cure will be discovered, but maybe not, and in the meantime resistance is the best bet.

Best wishes with the battle.

 

[sassybirds]

Thanks so much for your reply chooks4life! Your account is exactly the kind of info I am looking for! I'm glad that you are of a like mind. As for antibiotics, all I have is a coccidiostat. I have not medicated affected individuals. Upon presentation of symptoms they are swiftly culled...infected birds shed the virus, as do any "recovered" birds. It's been most obvious in my flock of youngsters. They range from 8-14 weeks old. It's decimated the speckled sussex I was growing out...it's gotten 6 of 11 so far . They seem to be the most suspectible. It only outright killed a couple, the rest I euthanized myself. The birds were mostly just wasting away...lethargy, inappetance, weak. Though a couple had neck and leg paralysis.

I would agree in that Austrailian diseases are different from those in North America...I would think the strains/severity would vary.

I also use deep litter and lime in my coops. Having works in a horse barn for years, I finally put two and two together and began applying lime in my coop. I have raised a few batches of chicks under broodies this year, but I also have used an incubator. I get my chicks out of the brooder (when using an incubator) and onto pasture as soon as possible. I also supplement the chicks in the brooder with fresh greens from the yard. I have yet to add herbs to my feed, though I have heard that garlic is excellent for them. I'll start adding to to their feed/water. I do not scrimp on their nutrition...though it is a commercial brand. I buy the most expensive feed that I can, though it's Purina and I'm sure all their claims to superior nutrition is a lie. I have yet to work up the guts and motivation to formulate my own feed.

I am working with pure bred birds...perhaps some of the breeds are weaker because they are kept, propped up, and bred because they look "nice". I hope to make sufficient strides in resistance in a couple of generations...I have read somewhere that MD affects pullets more than cockerels, so I'll have a lot of nice, strong cockerels to breed in the least.

 

[Nambroth]

Good luck to you! I am posting so that I can watch this thread and hopefully glean knowledge. I have a very small flock of very much pet birds, so have not gone down this route, because even one loss is heartbreaking. For those that have less personal attachment to their flock, are willing to cull and keep very strict and good records, and are in it for the long haul.... it is likely a worthwhile venture.

 

[chooks4life]

Thanks so much for your reply chooks4life! Your account is exactly the kind of info I am looking for! I'm glad that you are of a like mind. As for antibiotics, all I have is a coccidiostat. I have not medicated affected individuals. Upon presentation of symptoms they are swiftly culled...infected birds shed the virus, as do any "recovered" birds. It's been most obvious in my flock of youngsters. They range from 8-14 weeks old. It's decimated the speckled sussex I was growing out...it's gotten 6 of 11 so far . They seem to be the most suspectible. It only outright killed a couple, the rest I euthanized myself. The birds were mostly just wasting away...lethargy, inappetance, weak. Though a couple had neck and leg paralysis.

I would agree in that Austrailian diseases are different from those in North America...I would think the strains/severity would vary.

I also use deep litter and lime in my coops. Having works in a horse barn for years, I finally put two and two together and began applying lime in my coop. I have raised a few batches of chicks under broodies this year, but I also have used an incubator. I get my chicks out of the brooder (when using an incubator) and onto pasture as soon as possible. I also supplement the chicks in the brooder with fresh greens from the yard. I have yet to add herbs to my feed, though I have heard that garlic is excellent for them. I'll start adding to to their feed/water. I do not scrimp on their nutrition...though it is a commercial brand. I buy the most expensive feed that I can, though it's Purina and I'm sure all their claims to superior nutrition is a lie.

I have yet to work up the guts and motivation to formulate my own feed.

I am working with pure bred birds...perhaps some of the breeds are weaker because they are kept, propped up, and bred because they look "nice". I hope to make sufficient strides in resistance in a couple of generations...I have read somewhere that MD affects pullets more than cockerels, so I'll have a lot of nice, strong cockerels to breed in the least.

Good to hear.

I agree about Purina and the purebred birds. The weakest animals I've ever dealt with are purebreds. The comment about scrimping on nutrition is due to the commercial layer feeds often being so sub-par in nutrition that they're better classed as survival rations than complete feeds as they're not developed to keep animals alive for more than a few years. They don't supply many minerals, trace element etc which aren't necessary for survival in the short term but which are vital for longevity and total health. The short term deficiency won't show but down the track there's no repairing the harm done, or at least, it's incredibly difficult. The mineral/nutrient mix of many commercial feeds contains between 10 and 20-odd nutrients whereas around 80 is correct for a truly complete feed.

I also saw more pullets than cockerels die from it. That aspect would need investigating I'd guess. There is a reason why, for sure. Haven't heard of one suggested though.

Regarding culling birds showing infection, isn't that a bit of a moot point since by the time one shows infection chances are the whole flock's been exposed? In my experience almost none of mine showed any symptoms but I don't doubt that they've been exposed and are quite likely carriers. I guess it saves you time dealing with the weakest who are most prone, at least. But it also deprives you of a test subject for potential treatments, though it's not imperative that you go along that route anyway. Many paths lead to success.

It's times like these I wish I had a home laboratory, I'd be testing for this and that and ten thousand other things... lol. What's the chances of you finding an open-minded and progressive vet who is willing to help you study this and try to combat it?

I hope this thread yields some hope for Mareks' sufferers in future. I believe you're on the right track, though it won't be easy. Then again the right track rarely is.

Very best wishes with your endeavor.

 

[sassybirds]

Good luck to you! I am posting so that I can watch this thread and hopefully glean knowledge. I have a very small flock of very much pet birds, so have not gone down this route, because even one loss is heartbreaking. For those that have less personal attachment to their flock, are willing to cull and keep very strict and good records, and are in it for the long haul.... it is likely a worthwhile venture.

I can totally understand, Nambroth. Sorry to hear about your birds! Hopefully we can rustle up some good info...

Good to hear.

I agree about Purina and the purebred birds. The weakest animals I've ever dealt with are purebreds. The comment about scrimping on nutrition is due to the commercial layer feeds often being so sub-par in nutrition that they're better classed as survival rations than complete feeds as they're not developed to keep animals alive for more than a few years. They don't supply many minerals, trace element etc which aren't necessary for survival in the short term but which are vital for longevity and total health. The short term deficiency won't show but down the track there's no repairing the harm done, or at least, it's incredibly difficult. The mineral/nutrient mix of many commercial feeds contains between 10 and 20-odd nutrients whereas around 80 is correct for a truly complete feed.

I also saw more pullets than cockerels die from it. That aspect would need investigating I'd guess. There is a reason why, for sure. Haven't heard of one suggested though.

Regarding culling birds showing infection, isn't that a bit of a moot point since by the time one shows infection chances are the whole flock's been exposed? In my experience almost none of mine showed any symptoms but I don't doubt that they've been exposed and are quite likely carriers. I guess it saves you time dealing with the weakest who are most prone, at least. But it also deprives you of a test subject for potential treatments, though it's not imperative that you go along that route anyway. Many paths lead to success.

It's times like these I wish I had a home laboratory, I'd be testing for this and that and ten thousand other things... lol. What's the chances of you finding an open-minded and progressive vet who is willing to help you study this and try to combat it?

I hope this thread yields some hope for Mareks' sufferers in future. I believe you're on the right track, though it won't be easy. Then again the right track rarely is.

Very best wishes with your endeavor.

I have also read much of the same on commercial feeds...it's just the bare minimum. I free range my birds, and use a vitamin supplement, but I know the feed is subpar. Stale.

Where I had read the bit about pullets being more affected said nothing about WHY. Would be good to know...

I had to cull ANOTHER POL pullet today. Began showing leg weakness/paralysis. So frustrating. It was a hatchery bird though (purchased solely for egg production), so I'm not surprised it was susceptible. I am culling all birds showing symptoms in the hope that I will be left with the strongest, most resistant individuals. The way I have understood it, albeit poorly, that the bird isn't perfectly immune, only resistant. So, by my reasoning, by culling the infected/susceptible birds that are shedding the virus, that it will possibly reduce the viral load, and I won't have to doctor ill and suffering birds. The idea of trying St. John's on them is a good one though. I may try that with my next victim.

Here in GA there is the GA Poultry Lab that does necropsies and disease testing for free, so it's possible that they may be able to test for the "B factors" that contribute to resistance. The vet part though...I don't know. I have called and talked to several vets. And they all told me the same thing- vaccinate. Vaccinate. Vaccinate. It's almost like they were programmed to say that. One vet literally didn't understand what I was talking about when I mentioned breeding for resistance...hope spring eternal, and I'm sure I can hunt down a progressive vet if I just keep at it...

 

[sassybirds]

Oh! And I had meant to say that none of my home bred splash marans birds have had any trouble...KNOCK ON WOOD!!!!

 

[chooks4life]

Good to hear about your home-breds. Hope they remain strong against it.

Quote: lol yes, they are often effectively programmed, it's amazing how little some professionals know. :/

I have some worrying personal experiences, and know of quite a few people whom I don't doubt the veracity of with equivalent experiences, detailing shocking ignorance demonstrated by professionals. I believe most of them would benefit from hands-on experience as part of their training, which I know is probably asking too much, it's time consuming enough to do one or the other, never mind both studying and animal keeping. Good enough has to be good enough.

There are some vets even on this forum who don't know the basics, but at least as poultry keepers they are getting on track to learn as much as possible. All book learning and no hands-on learning leaves staggering great gaps in comprehension. Unfortunately excessive book learning minus experience with the practical side of things can apparently blind some people to reality perhaps for life. And unfortunately many textbooks being used to train our trusted professionals are riddled with some serious errors.

I'm not trying to make myself out to be some kind of expert here, I make no such claim; my opinion is based on the many textbooks I've studied for most of my life and having found not one single textbook to be totally correct. I keep multiple copies of books from different authors on every subject I'm interested in because every single one disagrees with others who are equally accredited, and every single one has at least one 'fact' I have found to be wrong, irrespective of how many of their other facts are correct. I'm not sure what's more frightening, professionals with incorrect knowledge or those who blindly trust in all they say.

Best wishes.

 

[Northie]

Not sure if I'm joining you in this endevour but I might be so I'm subscribing. We're dealing with something that could be Marek's Disease. We don't have easy access to testing or vets so for the moment, we're waiting to see what happens. So far we've had 3 sick, 2 were culled and one is still hanging on. The first seemed weak, ended up walking on it's hocks then not at all an it would struggle to sit up right. It didn't seem to be paralyzed because it still struggled when handled even in the bitter end it was still attempting to eat/drink but either it was too weak or it couldn't. It went down hill very fast, like 3 days. Same thing with the second, it looked weak then it was walking on it's hocks then it was gasping for air, then laying and gaping for breath before DH put her down. I asked him to "take a look inside" and he didn't find any growths or tumors but he did find a very full gut tract.... This time it has been much slower, started about 10 days ago and originally I figured it had something to do with the bacon fat that DH fed them but... Anyway poor guy is tipsy, droopy, eyes are clear and normal but look tired(?) Feathers were looking ruffled and he was spending a lot of time laying down but seems to be less so these last couple days. He hasn't dropped down on his hocks, I have added vitamins to the water made sure there was no access to wet food/bedding (mold?) No more strange treats, access to grit... Better food... There have been no really yucky poops. He does touch his legs and stretch his wings as though something feels off though.... (Sigh) I don't really know what is happening. These were my first birds, bought from a good(?) Breeder and have had no contact as far as I know of with chickens other than on that farm. They weren't vaccinated for anything at all.

 

[sassybirds]

Not sure if I'm joining you in this endevour but I might be so I'm subscribing. We're dealing with something that could be Marek's Disease. We don't have easy access to testing or vets so for the moment, we're waiting to see what happens. So far we've had 3 sick, 2 were culled and one is still hanging on. The first seemed weak, ended up walking on it's hocks then not at all an it would struggle to sit up right. It didn't seem to be paralyzed because it still struggled when handled even in the bitter end it was still attempting to eat/drink but either it was too weak or it couldn't. It went down hill very fast, like 3 days. Same thing with the second, it looked weak then it was walking on it's hocks then it was gasping for air, then laying and gaping for breath before DH put her down. I asked him to "take a look inside" and he didn't find any growths or tumors but he did find a very full gut tract.... This time it has been much slower, started about 10 days ago and originally I figured it had something to do with the bacon fat that DH fed them but... Anyway poor guy is tipsy, droopy, eyes are clear and normal but look tired(?) Feathers were looking ruffled and he was spending a lot of time laying down but seems to be less so these last couple days. He hasn't dropped down on his hocks, I have added vitamins to the water made sure there was no access to wet food/bedding (mold?) No more strange treats, access to grit... Better food... There have been no really yucky poops. He does touch his legs and stretch his wings as though something feels off though.... (Sigh) I don't really know what is happening. These were my first birds, bought from a good(?) Breeder and have had no contact as far as I know of with chickens other than on that farm. They weren't vaccinated for anything at all.

I'm so sorry to hear that...I hope you are able to get a diagnosis soon. I would be hesitant to say that it's one thing or another without an official vet diagnosis. There are many diseases that have similar symptoms, but it sounds like you're on the right track through process of elimination by checking for wet food/bedding and by giving vitamins. I, too, had a young pullet go down on her hocks...she regained some function, but after a month would walk "knock kneed". She ate and drank well..she was even laying! I eventually had to cull her. Her hocks were becoming inflamed from sitting on them all the time, her feathers in disarray from laying in her own poop...it was the kindest thing to do. I suspected Marek's, this happened before the diagnosis from the vet, but never had her tested, so I can't say for sure. General symptoms here have been lethargy, a general appearance of being unwell, and wasting away. It seems to happen quickly...over the course of a week.

Good to hear about your home-breds. Hope they remain strong against it.

lol yes, they are often effectively programmed, it's amazing how little some professionals know. :/

I have some worrying personal experiences, and know of quite a few people whom I don't doubt the veracity of with equivalent experiences, detailing shocking ignorance demonstrated by professionals. I believe most of them would benefit from hands-on experience as part of their training, which I know is probably asking too much, it's time consuming enough to do one or the other, never mind both studying and animal keeping. Good enough has to be good enough.

There are some vets even on this forum who don't know the basics, but at least as poultry keepers they are getting on track to learn as much as possible. All book learning and no hands-on learning leaves staggering great gaps in comprehension. Unfortunately excessive book learning minus experience with the practical side of things can apparently blind some people to reality perhaps for life. And unfortunately many textbooks being used to train our trusted professionals are riddled with some serious errors.

I'm not trying to make myself out to be some kind of expert here, I make no such claim; my opinion is based on the many textbooks I've studied for most of my life and having found not one single textbook to be totally correct. I keep multiple copies of books from different authors on every subject I'm interested in because every single one disagrees with others who are equally accredited, and every single one has at least one 'fact' I have found to be wrong, irrespective of how many of their other facts are correct. I'm not sure what's more frightening, professionals with incorrect knowledge or those who blindly trust in all they say.

Best wishes.

I agree. There is a definite need for more well rounded vets. If they are only taught one way, one point of view, and that's all they care to know, then what are we missing out on as "patients"? Adaptability is a measure of success. I'm currently mired in wedding planning, but plan on getting back on the vet hunt next week.

I spoke too soon about the marans...I have one pullet that is beginning to show signs of lethargy, and the cockerel is looking suspiciously thin. I don't know if it's just the awkward growing stage for him, or what, but he appears to be otherwise healthy. I ended up culling the rest of the speckleds...they have been the most seriously affected, and I didn't want a bunch of diseased birds hanging around as a source of infection for the others..though I know it is certainly rooted in my soil. I have a lot of younger birds up and coming- they are all around 6-8 weeks. I'm hoping that they will prove to be more resistant. It is hard to have to constantly cull these birds. I have started putting fresh garlic in their food and water for its anti microbial properties. Hopefully it will help and I'll have a break in deaths. Whew.