Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[seminolewind]

Quote:
They were about 8-10 weeks old, and I had moved them out of the pen that the "entiritis" deaths happened. It was like all within a day or two apart, one eye looked infected and they didn't seem to feel that good. I jumped to put them on Tylan, but had a few deaths, and one of the hens, who was like a month older got it and I put her in my bedroom with medicated water. She lives, but always had a slight droop to that eye. She's about 3 years old now.

My source of Marek's was easy to figure out. She had been the only chicken that was not day old hatchery or hatched here. And the first roo was symptomatic about 6 weeks later.

 

[ChickCrazed]

They were about 8-10 weeks old, and I had moved them out of the pen that the "entiritis" deaths happened. It was like all within a day or two apart, one eye looked infected and they didn't seem to feel that good. I jumped to put them on Tylan, but had a few deaths, and one of the hens, who was like a month older got it and I put her in my bedroom with medicated water. She lives, but always had a slight droop to that eye. She's about 3 years old now.

My source of Marek's was easy to figure out. She had been the only chicken that was not day old hatchery or hatched here. And the first roo was symptomatic about 6 weeks later.

One of mine has always had a bit of crust around her eye, and another has a bit of a puffiness above her eye and it looks like the third eyelid is slowly coming over more and more of her eye (she can't see well out of that eye). It is strange. I had a second one with the same puffiness and third eyelid issue and she was the most recent possible coccidosis death. I did try treating them all with Tylan and there was no change.

I haven't had any adult birds brought in, so if I managed to infect myself it was via chicks (who were properly quarantined for 6 weeks and who didn't show any issues until 14 weeks of age).

It is all very strange.

 

[tridentk9]

One article recommends a six month quarantine for chicks before letting them out with adults. Don't remember author. That might be a thought for a suspected (or confirmed) Marek's flock. It would allow their immune system to be up and running but it would be extremely difficult.

 

[speckledhen]

One article recommends a six month quarantine for chicks before letting them out with adults. Don't remember author. That might be a thought for a suspected (or confirmed) Marek's flock. It would allow their immune system to be up and running but it would be extremely difficult.

Yes, very difficult. And I don't hatch with incubators most of the time, but a few chicks at a time as I get broody hens. If acting like there is a contagion where groups of birds must be separated from other groups of birds on the same property (which wouldn't work for this disease anyway), then no way I can do it. My DH certainly won't do it. It's just not feasible and would take every bit of pleasure out of this. As it is, the pleasure quotient has waned quite a bit since this scare here.

ETA:
With the statements heard about resistance being passed down, it makes me wonder if it has been here and I have unknowingly bred a resistant flock. The hen necropsied had tape and capillaria worms, in spite of being wormed three months prior (that hen ate worms by the pound, I swear). I've upped my worming program due to her findings. I had not changed wormers in three years and only did it once each year, though I do believe this was her first worming. So, if say, she was down in health from that and the ovarian infection, maybe the virus just hit her when it might not have if she had been infection and worm-free? Just thinking here about the possible why's of my situation.

 

[gjensen]

One article recommends a six month quarantine for chicks before letting them out with adults. Don't remember author. That might be a thought for a suspected (or confirmed) Marek's flock. It would allow their immune system to be up and running but it would be extremely difficult.

Though it could be difficult to do, it is a great management option. It is one that I have been pretty strict about.

I have always done it. Part of it has been about biological pressures, but it has been a general management preference also. I have always raised my growers separately from the main flock. I also prefer not to grow the young birds out on the same ground year after year. I may go two years in a row. I like to give the ground a year in between.

I have heard 16, 20, and 24 weeks as recommendations. I have always went with when the pullets start laying. It is at this point that I can tell who has potential. That is the cockerels and pullets. I still do not mix the age groups, but they are placed in adjacent housing as the adult birds.

I am not especially religious about what I do. I always reserve the right to change my mind or concede on a point. Still my position is that separation, and rotation is ideal. My little "operation" has become an assembly line of sorts. In a way I have adapted the commercial concept of all in and all out, without my flock being all in an all out.
I believe that level of exposure is a major point. I will use worms as an example. Every poultry yard quickly accumulates worm eggs without any interference. Different birds have a different tolerance for parasite loads, but I do not want to be unrealistic about what I expect. Any bird would succumb at some point.

I have read studies where alongside breeding for resistance, they considered levels of exposure to young birds in adjacent housing. One mentioned the qty. of symptomatic birds being cut in half from housing 50' to 100' away.

A hang up that I have come to is that I have come to enjoy a hen with her chicks. This throws a lot out the window concerning Marek's, but I have a separate area designated for this to.

 

[speckledhen]

I'd have to make this a big operation for that and build several new buildings/pens. I can't afford to do that. At the beginning, all I wanted was a varied free range flock of layers with a rooster or two for guard duty and before this was a consideration, I was headed back toward those days. No more incubations, just babies raised by broodies and selling/rehoming the extras I didn't need. I don't like brooding chicks, have no grow-out place at all.

If I have to do rotations and separations, it's over for me. I just won't do that. I'm not a breeder, really, not in the sense that some would think of a breeder, no fifty + small pens with small coop enclosures side by side, etc., though I have birds I can breed and did plan to do so on a very small basis as I needed new layers when my very old hens died. There's no place to rotate to. The coop is the coop, which is why the free ranging. I live on mountain land, not pasture, so it's not easy to add anything here, not that I want to. Makes life too complicated for us with our health issues at this point in time.

I know that penned birds need worming more than birds who are ranged. I wormed mine as free rangers, but I have kept them penned more than I used to in the beginning days when I had one or two groups so I'm changing up my worming program here now. Everyone still gets out except for the bantams and the senior hens (though the latter does on rare occasions), just not all day, every day. I'll have to wait until DH gets SS before I can afford Valbazen, but I have plans for it later in spring.

 

[tridentk9]

 Though it could be difficult to do, it is a great management option. It is one that I have been pretty strict about.

 I have always done it. Part of it has been about biological pressures, but it has been a general management preference also. I have always raised my growers separately from the main flock. I also prefer not to grow the young birds out on the same ground year after year. I may go two years in a row. I like to give the ground a year in between.

 I have heard 16, 20, and 24 weeks as  recommendations. I have always went with when the pullets start laying. It is at this point that I can tell who has potential. That is the cockerels and pullets. I still do not mix  the age groups, but they are placed in adjacent housing as the adult birds.

 I am not especially religious about what I do. I always reserve the right to change my mind or concede on a point. Still my position is that separation, and rotation is ideal. My little "operation" has become an assembly line of sorts. In a way I have adapted the commercial concept of all in and all out, without my flock being all in an all out.
 I believe that level of exposure is a major point. I will use worms as an example. Every poultry yard quickly accumulates worm eggs without any interference. Different birds have a different tolerance for parasite loads, but I do not want to be unrealistic about what I expect. Any bird would succumb at some point.

 I have read studies where alongside breeding for resistance, they considered levels of exposure to young birds in adjacent housing. One mentioned the qty. of symptomatic birds being cut in half from housing 50' to 100' away.

 A hang up that I have come to is that I have come to enjoy a hen with her chicks. This throws a lot out the window concerning Marek's, but I have a separate area designated for this to.

An easy to clean and disinfect pen for raising chicks with a hen, vacuuming dander from that area with a dedicated vacuum and following your plans for keeping age groups together will go a long way to reducing risks from what I've read.

Hmmm, @Nambroth ? I wonder if an ultraviolet light on the pens would help with disinfection. Probably expensive but there are residential UV units now. Add a vacuum and air filter and you'd remove a large part of your infective viral load. The vacuum and filter would have to be cleaned after each use but if it keeps less birds from getting sick, a little extra work would be worth it. It would be easier for the smaller backyard flock owner of course.

Edited to add: UV Light would be for empty pens or coops, ie coops during the day when all residents are locked out, etc.

 

[gjensen]

I'd have to make this a big operation for that and build several new buildings/pens. I can't afford to do that. At the beginning, all I wanted was a varied free range flock of layers with a rooster or two for guard duty and before this was a consideration, I was headed back toward those days. No more incubations, just babies raised by broodies and selling/rehoming the extras I didn't need. I don't like brooding chicks, have no grow-out place at all.

If I have to do rotations and separations, it's over for me. I just won't do that. I'm not a breeder, really, not in the sense that some would think of a breeder, no fifty + small pens with small coop enclosures side by side, etc., though I have birds I can breed and did plan to do so on a very small basis as I needed new layers when my very old hens died. There's no place to rotate to. The coop is the coop, which is why the free ranging. I know that penned birds need worming more than birds who are ranged. And I wormed mine as free rangers, but I have kept them penned more than I used to in the beginning days when I had one or two groups so I'm changing up that program here now. Everyone still gets out except for the bantams and the senior hens (though the latter does on rare occasions), just not all day, every day.

I was not implying that everyone should or could do it this way. Not even that it is necessary.

I still think that the contribution could be helpful for some. I meant it to be more about perspective than specifics. There is no best way. I have a couple houses with attached runs and yards that I feel if I clean the housing, deep till the ground and use hydrated lime on the yards, then let it sit for a season then it is similar to putting them on fresh ground afterwards. Especially if I plant it with greens and let them fill in.

I believe in "cleaning the yard". It is difficult to do, but there is always a way. I am fortunate to live on deep sand. It is challenging to get gardens started, but good for raising birds. I would guess that you have rocky ground and a clay type subsoil. Maybe an option would be to bring some sand in, or spray the ground like you previously mentioned. I use hydrated lime, but I could offer no assurance of it's effectiveness. I believe it is helpful, but I cannot make any specific claims. Adapting your worming schedule like you mentioned should be helpful.

Look, I know more people (and breeders) that raise their birds on the same ground (both young and old birds) for years, and manage just fine. I have just developed a way that I like doing it. It does not mean that it will prevent me from having problems. I am sure that I will (if I can continue keeping them long enough). I brought something to this yard before and me and the birds I had then paid for it. There is nothing magical going on here.

 

[gjensen]

An easy to clean and disinfect pen for raising chicks with a hen, vacuuming dander from that area with a dedicated vacuum and following your plans for keeping age groups together will go a long way to reducing risks from what I've read.

Hmmm, @Nambroth ? I wonder if an ultraviolet light on the pens would help with disinfection. Probably expensive but there are residential UV units now. Add a vacuum and air filter and you'd remove a large part of your infective viral load. The vacuum and filter would have to be cleaned after each use but if it keeps less birds from getting sick, a little extra work would be worth it. It would be easier for the smaller backyard flock owner of course.

Edited to add: UV Light would be for empty pens or coops, ie coops during the day when all residents are locked out, etc.

I try to set all of my housing up where sunshine hits every bit (less the ceiling) at some point during the day. I doubt this is helpful for an active infection of any sort, but I do believe it is important. Full spectrum lighting certainly has value, and the sun is free.

 

[speckledhen]

I was not implying that everyone should or could do it this way. Not even that it is necessary.

I still think that the contribution could be helpful for some. I meant it to be more about perspective than specifics. There is no best way. I have a couple houses with attached runs and yards that I feel if I clean the housing, deep till the ground and use hydrated lime on the yards, then let it sit for a season then it is similar to putting them on fresh ground afterwards. Especially if I plant it with greens and let them fill in.

I believe in "cleaning the yard". It is difficult to do, but there is always a way. I am fortunate to live on deep sand. It is challenging to get gardens started, but good for raising birds. I would guess that you have rocky ground and a clay type subsoil. Maybe an option would be to bring some sand in, or spray the ground like you previously mentioned. I use hydrated lime, but I could offer no assurance of it's effectiveness. I believe it is helpful, but I cannot make any specific claims. Adapting your worming schedule like you mentioned should be helpful.

Look, I know more people (and breeders) that raise their birds on the same ground (both young and old birds) for years, and manage just fine. I have just developed a way that I like doing it. It does not mean that it will prevent me from having problems. I am sure that I will (if I can continue keeping them long enough). I brought something to this yard before and me and the birds I had then paid for it. There is nothing magical going on here.

I sure wish I could rotate and start over with a system like that! Yes, I have some clay, lots of sandstone and other rock. It's a challenge up here on the mountain.