Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[speckledhen]

I didn't like feeding my birds processed pellets or crumbles so I went to mixing a feed. I use a gamecock conditioner as my base. 5 scoops of it, one scoop of pigeon feed (real seeds and such) and I do put a 3/4 scoop of layer pellet in case they need it (although I they leave a good bit of it) some old fashioned oatmeal shook in, some cayenne pepper and crushed egg shells. I have been feeding this now for a bit over three years and they seem to be doing fine. I have been thinking of adding more vitamins but have not had time to figure out what to add.

Gamecock feed is basically what my scratch is, called Knockout Game Feed. I wish I could mix my own, but right now, I can't really afford it. On occasion I do give some supplemental things, like extra scrambled eggs mixed with olive oil, plain yogurt, turmeric, flax seed, cayenne pepper, minced garlic and a few drops of Polyvisol liquid vitamins or Avia Charge 2000.



I see that Tucker Milling, who makes the layer feed and chick starter I buy, makes a Non GMO feed now. Wonder about the cost and if my co-op can get it.

 

[gjensen]

How did I miss that? I didn't read the whole thing is why, took the assumption from a statement someone made, I guess. But, grains are natural feeds of birds, and it also says animal proteins cause problems. That's the part I read, the animal protein part. WHAT the heck ELSE can they eat other than grains or animal proteins? Rilly, geez. So, I've been feeding this scratch grain, which is higher in protein, for all these years, including animal protein and several types of wheat and NO necrotic enteritis. To me, the whole thing about wheat and animal proteins seems counter-intuitive.

Maybe we just don't have natural birds anymore. Never had any enteritis here that I know of and I think I'd know that, from the symptoms. I wonder, just wonder, how much monkeying around with our chicken breeds has caused issues with feeds that would never have been an issue before humans altered their genetics. My brain is swirling right about now with so many things, I can't even tell you.

I have been keeping chickens for twenty years, and have never had this problem. I have experimented with feeding them a variety of ways. I have had hatchery birds, commercial strains, and standard bred birds.
I have always liked wheat as a whole grain, and at one point was a major ingredient in their feed mix.

Diet becomes a bigger deal in an already compromised bird.

 

[speckledhen]

I have been keeping chickens for twenty years, and have never had this problem. I have experimented with feeding them a variety of ways. I have had hatchery birds, commercial strains, and standard bred birds.
I have always liked wheat as a whole grain, and at one point was a major ingredient in their feed mix.

Diet becomes a bigger deal in an already compromised bird.

I'd agree with this.

 

[gjensen]

I'd agree with this.

I have also wondered, and this is just speculation. I have read nothing on it. I have wondered if some of the progress with the efficiency of commercial strains is not related to absorption of nutrients in the intestines. If that was remotely true, could there be unintended consequences concerning the integrity of the digestive track? This could possibly be nowhere true.

I would be cautious of any study that did not include a variety of breeds and strains. I am not referring to this study, but some studies. There is a lot of diversity in our hobby.

 

[gjensen]

Gamecock feed is basically what my scratch is, called Knockout Game Feed. I wish I could mix my own, but right now, I can't really afford it. On occasion I do give some supplemental things, like extra scrambled eggs mixed with olive oil, plain yogurt, turmeric, flax seed, cayenne pepper, minced garlic and a few drops of Polyvisol liquid vitamins or Avia Charge 2000.



I see that Tucker Milling, who makes the layer feed and chick starter I buy, makes a Non GMO feed now. Wonder about the cost and if my co-op can get it.

For anyone that has trialed different feeds, have they done side by side comparisons?

 

[seminolewind]

I think most chicken feed is fine and some leftovers is good too. But I've had 6 chickens die in the past few months and all from different things. So I'm kindof grasping at straws here, and trying a few minor changes and see if it makes a difference. It could be my flock is getting older. In the interim, I have been reading a lot on subclinical enteritis, and what kinds of food the bacteria really like. Again, I'm grasping at straws. But this literature was based more on building resistance thru diet.

 

[lalaland]

I've been reading through this thread and am very interested, no make that wildly fascinated.

Have had some unexplained losses after stupidly bringing in unvaccinated chicks the last two springs.
Had a 4 mo old rooster present classic marek's symptoms (paralysis, one leg front, one back). Took him to univ of mn path lab last Thursday to be euthanized and necropsied.

Just had phone conversation with vet on results today. No tumors. Encephalitis in the brain. Tested negative for two encelphalitis viruses, waiting on newcastle disease test but strongly suspects would be negative. A little coci but not an overload. Preliminary conclusion is mareks.

I asked about advice I had gotten to bring in turkey litter, vet negative about that, saying could expose flock to salmonella?

I've lost 4 birds, all from last year or this years new chicks, to unknown causes in the last 8 months or so. Wasting away was one, oanother healthy appearing bird puffed up one day, died the next, and one died overnight but had egg yolk and egg white leaking from her body. Rooster is the 4th - so I am thinking at least 3 of the 4 were mareks.


Everyone is looking good except for the hens in heavy molt. Thinking of culling the remaining rooster to reduce flock stress.

 

[ChicKat]

lalaland
sorry for your loss. The necropsey results I had required going to the secondary level (cellular) because no tumors were present either. Hope that is the end of your losses, and post if it is comfirmed to be Marek's.

 

[seminolewind]

I've been reading through this thread and am very interested, no make that wildly fascinated.

Have had some unexplained losses after stupidly bringing in unvaccinated chicks the last two springs.
Had a 4 mo old rooster present classic marek's symptoms (paralysis, one leg front, one back). Took him to univ of mn path lab last Thursday to be euthanized and necropsied.

Just had phone conversation with vet on results today. No tumors. Encephalitis in the brain. Tested negative for two encelphalitis viruses, waiting on newcastle disease test but strongly suspects would be negative. A little coci but not an overload. Preliminary conclusion is mareks.

I asked about advice I had gotten to bring in turkey litter, vet negative about that, saying could expose flock to salmonella?

I've lost 4 birds, all from last year or this years new chicks, to unknown causes in the last 8 months or so. Wasting away was one, oanother healthy appearing bird puffed up one day, died the next, and one died overnight but had egg yolk and egg white leaking from her body. Rooster is the 4th - so I am thinking at least 3 of the 4 were mareks.


Everyone is looking good except for the hens in heavy molt. Thinking of culling the remaining rooster to reduce flock stress.

Hi. I'm sorry about your losses. It's very sad.

It's really a good thing that you went for a necropsy. I hope you get that Marek's PCR to cover NON symptoms.

Inflammation of the brain. Could be a number of things that look like Marek's. Could be a tick bite.

On one hand your rooster had a classic sign. And the spacing between deaths sounds like Marek's. But on the other hand, puffing up one day and dying the next sounds more like coccidiosis, or enteritis which would look like that but need something like Tylan to treat it.

Four years ago I lost a batch of 6 week olds, one at a time to paralysis, wasting, and loss of depth perception. . And a two year old rooster and a hen as well at that time. I can't explain that to be anything other than Marek's.

I've had many wasters, and decided in May to start doing necropsies. I have 2 confirmed no Marek's, and one interim I'm waiting for that so far does not have any signs. And one with Aspergillosis on the lung and in the heart and on the liver.

But 2 have come back with necrotic enteritis, and so far this current one has some necrosis on the liver.

I hope you can update this thread with your next or final report. Skip the turkey poop. You don't want salmonella .

If chicks came from those 2 groups it could also be that your flock was positive before you got the chicks. Who knows.

 

[speckledhen]

My friend and I had the same scare, same time. Both our hens, reproductive infection, hers internal laying. Both normal livers, hers had some minor worms, mine had a more dangerous type. Hers died before mine did and then a second one died out of the same pen at her place. She got her final report, 5 pages worth, mine still hasn't arrived. They tested for every known disease, I think.

The interesting findings were that the little D'Uccle hen had tumors in several places in her body, including her brain. The diagnosis? NOT Marek's. The tumors, which were apparently not really the main cause of death, were due to Autoimmune lymphoproliferative syndrome (ALPS), a non-contagious disease that is very rare. It's been seen in (gee, shocker) birds in Georgia, Arkansas and a handful of other lower states. So, this backs up what I keep saying. Not all non-reproductive tumors are Marek's Disease.

My long suffering Buff Orp hen died night before last. Karen, you read the thread about me draining all that fluid off her. She had two baseball size masses up where her left liver lobe should have been. No worms, no other tumors. Her heart pretty much gave out, body was full of blood, leaking out of her mouth. She's been doing this up-and-down thing for over 2 of her 3 1/2 years of life and her sister died strangely as well, so not related to whatever happened to this hen I had necropsied. Neither of those Orp sisters laid more than a handful of eggs once they started, then they just quit. She kept living, her sister did not. Hope had NO eggs inside, no internal laying. I believe this was a genetic disorder, in truth.

lalaland, I really hate mysteries. Sorry for your troubles. It's so stressful.