Moving Forward- Breeding for Resistance to Marek's Disease

[speckledhen]

Hey All! Just popping in to TRY to catch up (there have been a bazillion posts since I have been on last) and to see how everyone was. I am so happy that this thread has exploded- lots of great info on here!

Speckledhen- what were the final findings on your necropsy?

Things have been well on this end...no MD symptoms or deaths recently! Just dealt with a case of blackhead in my turkeys and dealing with some weak chicks that I hatched from a breeder. It seems like the breeder was breeding for "show quality" more than anything else that would be helpful, like hardiness, feed conversion, foraging ability, etc. Go figure! Ya live and ya learn!

I'll try to get on more often and not be so behind...I guess I have just been off in la la land!

I've been wondering about you! I still do not have a final. I'm going to have to contact the state vet and see what's up with it. Still no other birds are ill, no young ones are showing any issues, though they are roaming over the same ground as all others. The current group is up to 9 weeks old now. If that hen tests positive for Marek's, it will be the strangest thing ever and only incidental to her dying from her reproductive infection.that I would have even known it. So, I still don't know. But, I'm glad you checked back in on your thread! Sorry about the blackhead in the turkeys.

 

[Nambroth]

@seminolewind I think it also matters when the birds first get exposed to the virus. My roo was 11 months old when it hit him hard and he was my first. He was riddled with Marek's tumors. I suspect that birds that get exposed to it from the start will show tumors probably within that 20-30 weeks though, if they are going to succumb.
Birds exposed later for the first time may develop tumors later than that.

 

[seminolewind]

Thankyou, Nambroth.

I have to admit that all these past years I was so focused on Marek's virus and it's symptoms that I've really really missed the 2nd most important thing here, maybe the first.

It's one thing to succumb to Marek's virus and die from the damage of the tumors, or the terrible symptoms. I've always thought of Marek's also popping up later in a chicken's life and me contributing the symptoms to Marek's. And the symptoms can usually mimic any other illness, which is why it's so hard to nail it down.

But do those symptoms mimic other illnesses, or are they really other illnesses secondary to a suppressed immune system from Marek's.

From this thread, reading some from the big book, and the necropsies, I've realized that Marek's is actually 2 important factors. Marek's virus , symptoms, and spread, and Marek's caused suppression of the immune system, which seems to be for life.

From what I've read, a young chicken can develop Marek's tumors and their symptoms. If they are vaccinated or exposed and don't grow the tumors, they are still infected with Marek's and the importance of that is a damaged immune system. So it allows any opportunistic bug to multiply and kill a chicken when that chicken should have been able to defend itself against it. By opportunistic bug I mean anything that is normal in small amounts inside the chicken or it's immediate area multiplying without limit. Especially cocci, e.coli, aspergillus, which are kept in check by a healthy immune system.

So I imagine it would be really difficult to tell if a Marek's exposed chicken at let's say 5 years old was dying from an illness common to a chicken, or a Marek's exposed chicken dying from illnesses that were secondary to a Marek's exposed suppressed immune system.

Tough call. I have just lost a 2 year old Vaccinated chicken that was double her normal weight, and filled with fluid, possibly peritonitis.
Was that a common occurrence or was it an occurrence secondary to Marek's damaged immune system.

Does breeding for resistance also include the Marek's exposure -causing life long suppression of the immune system ?

 

[seminolewind]

My Miss Bossy looked improved last night and got some treats. Today she was found dead. She weighed actually double her weight.

She was vaccinated at the hatchery.

 

[lalaland]

seminolewind,
I'm so sorry. I've seen that happen, seeming to improve suddenly followed by death. I'm glad you got to give her treats, though. Hang in there.

 

[Nambroth]

My Miss Bossy looked improved last night and got some treats. Today she was found dead. She weighed actually double her weight.

She was vaccinated at the hatchery.

Oh no... I'm so sorry. Rest easy that she at least seemed to go quick, and while feeling okay, and full of treats. Poor girl, and poor you. My sincere sympathy!

 

[speckledhen]

I'm so sorry, Karen. I could be not even related to Marek's at all. There are so darn many things to go wrong that will cause ascites like that, including liver and heart failure. The hen I drained had NO internal laying/peritonitis, so fluid buildup can be numerous things. Chicken disease is not as straight forward as many people on BYC tend to think (present company excepted-we know how complex it can be!). There are many disease or genetic related abnormalities that are not what would normally come to mind first when you say a hen is bloated.

 

[seminolewind]

I agree Cynthia. There are a few of the deaths here that I don't think had anything to do with Marek's immune suppression. I believe she had peritonitis from something else. It was not a rock hard abdomen. It was like a bag filled with water.

Henrietta had EYP. Fern had a rare cancer.

I would tend to think there's immune suppression problems when I hear about the cause of death including some normally found bacteria.

I wonder how one goes about building a better immune system? Vitamins, minerals and protein?

 

[speckledhen]

I agree Cynthia. There are a few of the deaths here that I don't think had anything to do with Marek's immune suppression. I believe she had peritonitis from something else. It was not a rock hard abdomen. It was like a bag filled with water.

Henrietta had EYP. Fern had a rare cancer.

I would tend to think there's immune suppression problems when I hear about the cause of death including some normally found bacteria.

I wonder how one goes about building a better immune system? Vitamins, minerals and protein?

All I know is good quality feed, fresh clean water, dry clean environment and plenty of natural sunlight and fresh air, extra vitamins and minerals. Not sure there is anything special to do, more than that. I've used probiotics, flax seed and have recently started sprinkling turmeric in their feeds. We use extra virgin olive oil to cook with so I use that in their special concoctions as well, seems to help circulation. Someone I know whose been raising birds almost as long as I've been alive swears that tomato juice helps with crop issues and it sure helped Caroline's sluggish crop this summer when tomatoes were plentiful and she got them all the time. Organic ACV with the mother has vitamins and helps with the gut and crop pH. So, all that combined is what I've done, but not all the time, just when I have time, in addition to the usual feeds and free ranging. Mostly, they get just their pelleted feed and the 11 grain scratch.

My flocks are just generally healthy birds, overall, since the hatchery stock has passed on (except for Caroline, who is a hatchery Brahma with old age pendulous crop). They develop the same old age issues as we do, the stiff joints/arthritis, some worse than others, and even cancer that is not contagious. Amanda has lost complete control of her one leg with the severe arthritic hock joint, but she has started up laying again and she's almost 8 years old, has laid four eggs this past week. I'm amazed at her. They just keep on trucking if they have no real internal issues, which is why I am very concerned when I lose two 1 year old hens in the space of three months time.

If we don't rotate our stock every two years, keep them upwards of ten years or till they pass on, we will see many things other folks don't. Just like with humans, there are many diseases and infirmities that beset chickens as they age. If I sold off layers every two years, I'd probably not be dealing with most things I've dealt with, internal laying, arthritis, pendulous crop progressing to the point of killing a bird, etc

 

[Northie]

I agree Cynthia.  There are a few of the deaths here that I don't think had anything to do with Marek's immune suppression. I believe she had peritonitis from something else.  It was not a rock hard abdomen.  It was like a bag filled with water. 

Henrietta had EYP.  Fern had a rare cancer.

I would tend to think there's immune suppression problems when I hear about the cause of death including some normally found bacteria.

I wonder how one goes about building a better immune system?  Vitamins, minerals and protein?

Having a hard time keeping up lately, but did you have a few birds come back negative for Mareks? I could be mistaken, were they negative and died of other causes or positive and something else, another health condition proved too much for them?