My Beloved Roo Is Becoming A Problem...despite all attempts to turn him around.

[Rettarain2]

OMG...Better be using Peroxide on those cuts. WOW! My dear boy..He s Henry Roo..The 8th bird hence the name...ANyway, he turns away from me after I tand up to him. I don't know if this is defeat or just bored with me... ANyway, the past few days he and "the mop" have tussels..ending with the mop bopping him...He turns and goes away but when he flales his wings and puffs up he spooks me. I am hoping its a teen ager thing. He was born at Easter time.
I would dispose of your guy...If you KNOW BIRDS and he does THAT...Hummmm....
Good Luck and thanks for sharing
Maggie

 

[Rettarain2]

GREAT ADVISE.I seem to be doing just as you suggested. So when he turns from me after I stand up to his challenge I've won..We do this daily and I actually like the exchange with him cause I feel I am getting somewhere with him. Later in the day I usually sit out by the pen an sing to him and the ladies. he sometimes joins in! He has a sweet high pitched whistle.. "-) Especially likes Beatle Songs..lol...

 

[Yazzo]

Okay, I admit I haven't read any of the replies - only the main post, so forgive me for butting in, but I'm on a library computer and only have eight minutes to outline this.

I rescue roosters. I've rescued aggressive roosters and rehabilitated them. I have a fighting cock that now lives happily with twenty other roosters and a turkey ( tom ). I have a rooster that put his previous owner in the hospital and is now a doll - literally, small children can pick him up and hug him without incident. Most of my birds I get because they were "beginning" to behave aggressively, either charging or jumping at people, but are sweethearts with me.

Just a quick note - I've developed my own training and taming techniques based on Cesar Millan's ( the Dog Whisperer ) techniques, so if you're familiar with him, you'll see a lot of parallels with what I do compared to what he does. Millan's techniques are basically made up of two ingredients: Calm + assertive energy AND dog psychology. Firstly, we replace "dog" with "chicken", and as I've learned "chicken" can be just about any ground-dwelling galliform, so far as psychology goes. In my experience turkeys, peafowl, pheasants, and quail all respond well to my techniques.

So firstly, we MUST understand what "calm" is and BECOME it - by fearing your beloved pet, you are feeding his OWN insecurities! HE IS AFRAID OF YOU, and his aggression is naught but a means of GETTING YOU AWAY FROM HIM BECAUSE YOUR FEAR SCARES HIM. Then when you back down or act fearful yourself, he senses that you are failing at being a dominant flock member, and in the minds of animals there are only two options: Dominance, or submission. There is no grey area, there is no "freedom" at being given "free will" or "options" - this just confuses animals, and adds to their neurosis. If you're not being dominant, he HAS to fill the void - this is how it is for ALL animals!

( Woo! The library staff was kind and gave me another hour, so HERE WE GO!! )

But let's look at domestication, what it is, what it means, and how it affects a domesticated animal first, shall we? Domestication is a process that takes place over many, many generations, and it creates a physiological and psychological variant on the wild animal that the domesticated animal is descended from. The domestication process actually creates a psychological and physical DEPENDENCY on humans! The animals CANNOT live a psychologically fulfilled life without humans! Part of that dependency is that it is bred into the animal to look up to humans as dominant figureheads of their lives, but many humans of modern times FAIL TO FULFILL THIS ROLE. That means the animal becomes neurotic and attempts to fill the role themselves, which often manifests as aggression and obsessive behaviors, such as feather-picking, chewing, obsessively beating up other animals, turning circles obsessively, urinating or defecating in areas they usually wouldn't, OCD-like behaviors such as moving all bedding to a certain area, collecting and stashing toys, and so forth. Almost all "odd" animal behaviors are rooted in neurosis of some sort.

How do we know that domestication causes physiological and psychological changes? Well, there are many, many ways we know this, but the experiment that stuck out the most to me was a Russian experiment with silver foxes. Russian scientists wanted to try to reproduce the conditions of wolves evolving into dogs, so they took silver foxes and bred them - initially STRICTLY for good temperament. As they bred some foxes for specifically calm traits, they also bred foxes for specifically aggressive traits just to see what would happen. The aggressive foxes had no specific changes whatsoever, but the calm and submissive foxes began to change! They changed colour, their behavior became more tame and dog-like, and they even began to bark and whine like dogs! These foxes became happy and excited to see their human care-takers, eager to please, and enjoyed being handled. For more information, I just found the Wikipedia article here: [link]

That being said, chickens are domesticated animals, and domesticated animals NEED HUMAN INTERVENTION to live happy, fulfilled lives. We MUST be dominant, we MUST take up our roles as not only their care-givers, but their livelihood-givers! WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THESE ANIMALS, it is our JOB to not only take care of them physically, but psychologically as well.

So how do you show dominance? There are many people who believe in the archaic techniques of pain = submission. Look at capitol punishment - the psychology behind it was that torture created a healthy fear and respect of authority. After all, would YOU want YOUR hand cut off for stealing a measly apple? Is that apple worth your hand? But again and again sociological studies have showed that firm but gentle discipline works better, brings up moral and loyalty, and supports self-esteem of lower-ranking people than harsh, iron-fisted punishment. And here's some vocabulary for you: "Punishment" is from emotion, it is based in anger or fear and has no logic, and is thus difficult to learn from. "Discipline" is methodical, and easily equated to certain things. Imagine a parent who disciplines their children for stealing a cookie from a cookie jar by putting them into a time-out for five minutes - and does this EVERY SINGLE TIME the child steals a cookie from the jar, versus a parent who sometimes lets the cookie-thief slip away "unnoticed", and other times flies into a rage and hits the child, but there is no consistency to this punishment and the fear created IS NOT RESPECT - it's only fear, and fear makes us want to figure out how to CIRCUMVENT it, not respect and avoid it.

So you have to be firm and CONSISTENT. You have to give the same discipline for the same behavior, no matter what. Consistency and patience are what it takes to form long-lasting and strong bonds and relationships with both animals and people. You want your animal to respect you, not fear you - fear is a ticking time-bomb, and though the animal COULD go its whole life never attacking you again, it could also cause the animal to self-destruct, psychologically-speaking. They could just snap one day, or in their fear they could see an opportunity one day and go all out in attack-mode. Fear is NOT a sustainable approach for training ANY animal - humans included! But an excess of cuddles and love only helps to ENCOURAGE the neurotic behavior, too, because when the animal is tense and aggravated, and you then give it praise, treats, and physical contact, you are sending this message to your pet: "I like you in this state of mind. Look at how much I like when you behave like this! I'm giving you treats for behaving like this!" You are NOT comforting your animal, and you are NOT calming them down - you're just telling them that it's totally okay and cool to be upset and neurotic.

I believe in a healthy balance of both positive and negative reinforcement. The same outcome can, ultimately, be achieved through either pure positive OR negative reinforcement, but without balancing them both, it will take much longer and your success isn't guaranteed. My "negative" reinforcement is a way to "disagree" with a behavior - I'm not beating the animal, or specifically LOOKING for reasons to discipline it, but I will CLEARLY tell the animal that I AM NOT PLEASED with its behavior, and I won't be shy about it, either. My "positive" reinforcement is a way to "agree" with a behavior - to tell the animal that what it is doing is good, and I appreciate it. Both reinforcement techniques are used in ways similar to how chickens would interact with each other ( again, Millan's idea is to use "dog language" to speak to dogs, so we're doing the same here with chickens ).

If I want to disagree with a chicken, I do to my chickens what they do to each other - they peck or bite, but watch them and you'll find that it's usually not very hard, and usually just once does the trick. I use one or two fingers, and jab at the bird I'm disciplining, or gently "kick" them ( I use my toes or the toe of my shoe to nudge at them or push them a little bit so they get the hint ). I only "hit" hard enough for them to NOTICE. A gentle touch isn't going to get much attention, but a single, little jab is usually enough to redirect their attention - and that's all we're doing when disciplining, is redirecting their attention from their bad behavior. If they're truly terrorizing me, someone else, or something else, I grab the bird, pinch the skin on the back of their neck ( they have a scruff like a cat, so you're NOT PINCHING TO HURT, just to get a hold of their head so you can control where it is ), and while ALSO holding the bird's back ( if you hold JUST the neck or head, they can seriously injure themselves trying to get away from you ), and I hold them still until they calm down. Did I say "until they stop struggling"? No, I said "calm down" - and that's a key, because the first SEVERAL times you do this, they'll have NO IDEA what you're doing, because you've never done it before, so they'll struggle A LOT, and once they stop struggling, you go to adjust your grip or let go, and they WILL start to fight all over again! Keep hold of them until you can SEE that they are breathing easier, their heart beat is normal, and they are CALM. You may have to let go and hold onto them several times in one "pick up" as they get used to this form of discipline. The other thing I do is if the bird is prone to biting, I might flick their beak - again, we're NOT TRYING TO HURT THE BIRD, just get their attention. If the bird bites again, it is NOT because you failed at getting their attention - it's that they're not used to you being dominant, so they are TESTING whether or not you really mean what you're saying. And oh yes - they will test you! It is ingrained in animals to ALWAYS test their boundaries, so this is a LIFE-LONG, LIFE-STYLE change you are making to yourself to devote yourself to being a calm, assertive person EVERYWHERE ALWAYS. Honestly, it will make your WHOLE LIFE a heck of a lot easier, though, because even humans are animals, and even humans will be inclined to follow you if you lead.

Once you are confident that you have disciplined your chicken, he has understood his discipline, and has calmed down, begin gently stroking his cheeks, or neck. For beginners, the neck as a gentle "neck massage" is probably the best thing for you to do - chickens love neck massages, and you will know he's happy when his belly begins to tremble, or he gently picks up his wing so that you can scratch the underside of the bend of his wing. As your relationship grows, begin to gently stroke his cheek, around his eyes, his earlobes, wattles, and comb, and they LOVE when you scratch their ears! I actually stick my finger right into their ears and gently rub in circles right on the opening of their ears, and they'll close their eyes and tilt their heads for you. If they shake their heads, they're not upset, they're just getting used to the contact - if they close their eyes, tremble their bellies, or gently lift their wings when you scratch at them, you know you're doing something right. If they squeal, or "purr" ( it sounds like a cross between a pigeon cooing and a cat purring ) you REALLY know you're doing something right! Once he comes to enjoy his being picked up, begin to feed him treats WHILE holding him! If he bites your hand, just remember that this isn't aggressive, he just doesn't know the difference between your hand and the treat. I've taught my boys the difference by gently bopping at their beaks or heads when they accidentally bite my hand, and once you have a solid relationship with them, they'll be aware of your mood and if I say, "Ow!" or, "That hurt!" they'll actually stop and peck at what's in my hands more gently.

Another thing to do with an aggressive bird is to NEVER, EVER back away from them! When you move AWAY from the bird, you create an opening that says, "COME AT ME!!" The bird sees this as a submissive gesture, and will attempt to claim dominance upon it. Instead, when the bird comes at you, jumps at you, or what-have-you, move TOWARDS it. Always towards it! I have some house mates that my birds have begun to challenge because they are very submissive and afraid of the birds, but we've all experienced a great deal of success when I taught them to always move towards the bird. I also tell them that if they're afraid the bird is going to jump at them, to kick out their feet at the birds like a goose-stepping march - that creates a distraction, and obstructs the air-space for the bird to jump in. The problem with this approach is that a lot of people unconsciously lean back when they put their foot back down, which is moving away from the bird, which opens them up for attack. Keep moving forward, keep marching like a dork, and you'll see the confusion almost immediately as the bird puffs up, flaps, turns in circles, runs away a few steps only to come back at you, then run away again, but once the bird flattens its feathers and runs away without intent of coming back, you've "won" the challenge and can stop looking like someone from Monty Python making fun of Nazis. Also, raise your arms and "flap" them - it'll make YOU look bigger, too, but be careful that if you're not FEELING dominant, this can come off as a challenge, and never continue to follow the bird once he's submitted, because then you'll be seen as trying to instigate a full-on fight.

So to summarize, be CALM and ASSERTIVE, which creates what animals recognize as a "dominant energy". Always move forward - never away. Discipline to disagree with bad behaviours, and give affection and treats to agree with good behaviours. Sounds easy enough, but it takes PATIENCE, PATIENCE, PATIENCE. Oh, and some more patience. And CONSISTENCY. Now go out there and PRACTISE your new knowledge, techniques, and abilities, and adjust accordingly to your personal situation!

Good luck, and I'll try to check back in now and again to see how things are going.

Huh. You just put so much of my philosophies and techniques into one post, and much more eloquently and cleanly than I did with my rooster post and page from a few years back. The most remarkable thing is that you are mentioning Cesar Millan. I have NEVER heard anyone else mention him in relation to chickens, but I have always compared how I handle aggressive roosters to how he handles aggressive dogs, and I think that observing his techniques can be hugely helpful in training chickens. Roosters really can be rehabilitated!

Thanks for the post! I hope this circulates around BYC like wildfire, because heaven knows, so many people could use the info. I tried to respond to many, many more people a couple years ago, giving advice about handling and rehabilitating aggressive roosters, but I'm just not nearly as good at translating my thoughts into words as you are. However, I am planning on making some chicken videos, as it's usually much effective to show rather than tell (IF I can show it in an interesting, engaging way that is). In the meantime, I'd better update my rooster page, and I hope you turn this into its own separate page too, as it would be useful to link to.

Here's to spreading this kind of info as far as wide as possible, so that many more roosters can be rehabilitated and saved!

 

[azygous]

Olychickenguy has a whole bunch of "how-to" videos on chicken training and care. https://www.youtube.com/olychickenguy They're very helpful as well as interesting. I mentioned it before and I will mention it again - he runs a rooster rescue from his homeless camp. The roosters live in a tent, believe it or not! Twenty of them.

 

[happyfrenchman]

A Rooster rescue, located in a homeless camp? I guess the fellow is homeless and living in the woods with some people and some roosters.... That is tough... I am sorry to hear of misfortunes.... . However that really is kind of genius.... Running a shelter for homeless roosters?..... Chicken people generally have too many...always having to get rid of them... do these homeless roosters ever graduate to find homes? Perhaps between some potatoes and some broccoli?

 

[azygous]

Yes, the roosters are placed in homes as soon as he can find them. He gets funds to help in his endeavors from time to time, but he's managed just fine in this life style over the three years I've known him. The roosters free range during the day or are in make shift enclosures. They all put themselves into their tent "coops" when night comes.

You should watch his videos. He has a couple roos that ride to town on his bike with him. He also trained a couple to serve as "service" animals. He has mastered the art /science of chicken psychology, and there isn't a rooster he's met that cannot be rehabilitated, and some have been the worst sort of hellions.

It's not an easy life, but the chickens are well cared for and loved and they don't seem to mind.

 

[happyfrenchman]

That is a nice story... I will check his videos.... Thank you.

 

[guernsi]

It's been a while since I have posted an update about my roo, old Saul Skookum Spurs, so here goes for any interested. We haven't had any rooster stew yet !

We are still working on the behavior modification, but have come a long way ! It's been more like a roller coaster rather than steady progress. Part of the issue seems to stem from his environment. We have had to separate him from the hens a few times (in his own pen next to the girls) and during these times he is particularly aggressive. Once reintegrated, he tries to establish his dominance over me, the dog, and my husband, but we've worked through it.

I have learned to read his most subtle body language much better. I was attempting to walk toward him and make him move away ANY time I sensed he was acting aggressive, or even looking at me the wrong way. However, I've learned that doing so results in more attacks on my legs. Why would this be? I discovered that I can still walk toward him to make him move away, but prevent the attack, if I pause my walk about 2 feet from him. He takes a few seconds to consider the situation, then retreats slowly. He still pecks at the grass aggressively while he retreats, but I keep him moving until he calms down and puts his attention onto something else. I believe he may have been attacking out of fear when I walked at him without giving him a chance to think about what was happening. Maybe a learned behavior that just needs to be unlearned.

We still have an issue with the roo and the dog however. The dog will run away from attacks, which means the roo will pursue him. If anyone has any ideas about this issue, I would be interested to hear.

 

[Penny Hen]

It's been a while since I have posted an update about my roo, old Saul Skookum Spurs, so here goes for any interested. We haven't had any rooster stew yet !

We are still working on the behavior modification, but have come a long way ! It's been more like a roller coaster rather than steady progress. Part of the issue seems to stem from his environment. We have had to separate him from the hens a few times (in his own pen next to the girls) and during these times he is particularly aggressive. Once reintegrated, he tries to establish his dominance over me, the dog, and my husband, but we've worked through it.

I have learned to read his most subtle body language much better. I was attempting to walk toward him and make him move away ANY time I sensed he was acting aggressive, or even looking at me the wrong way. However, I've learned that doing so results in more attacks on my legs. Why would this be? I discovered that I can still walk toward him to make him move away, but prevent the attack, if I pause my walk about 2 feet from him. He takes a few seconds to consider the situation, then retreats slowly. He still pecks at the grass aggressively while he retreats, but I keep him moving until he calms down and puts his attention onto something else. I believe he may have been attacking out of fear when I walked at him without giving him a chance to think about what was happening. Maybe a learned behavior that just needs to be unlearned.

We still have an issue with the roo and the dog however. The dog will run away from attacks, which means the roo will pursue him. If anyone has any ideas about this issue, I would be interested to hear.

Super-soaker water gun.

 

[chynasparks]

My Roo is doing the same. I'm attached to him even though he's being aggressive. He's only been real bad twice. I chased him down, caught him and walked around the pen with him in front of the girls. He's a big boy, a rooster and its his nature so I don't expect to change what comes natural to him. All I can do is try to maintain my dominance over the flock. If he gets serious then I'll have to rehome him. He's 14 months old so I think he's leveling out (hoping). He's a big beauty and I care about him.