My Black Australorp is sneezing!

[maidenwolfx80]

If you try the apple cider make sure it has the "mother" in it. Keep a good watch on whether or not anything else is changing any runny nose or goopy eyes or difference in their poo. It can change so fast with them. Hopefully it is just something got intheir noses and irratated them. My sick chickes are finally after 3 days starting to look alittle brighter

and ran to see me. Its terrible when they are sick.

 

[cowcreekgeek]

Still no change - although I noticed tonight that when she was in the coop, she didn't sneeze. I'm thinking it's environmental - I'm just a nervous new chicken mommie, and this is my favorite girl, so I'm probaby getting ahead of myself. No strange behavior, no swelling near the eyes (or anywhere else for that matter), no discharge from nostrils or eyes, bird still alert and poops all normal.
I'm starting to think that I'm freaking out over nothing...but I think I might go ahead and try the apple cider vinegar "cure" just in case. I don't like the sound of giving my birds antibiotics they might not need...If I use them now, when they DO need them later, they might not work!

This is so useful! Thank you, will (attempt to) try that for the next week or so.

ACV stripping the mucus to increase nutrient absorption??? Never heard of such a thing...got any research on that one? I don't normally ask for research, particularly on things like ACV as there isn't much scientific study done on it, but this seems a little far-fetched. The mucosa in the bowel produces a certain amount of mucus that is necessary to protect the intestinal lining...ACV wouldn't "strip" this mucus and doesn't act as an astringent to the bowel, that I am aware of. This would leave the bowel vulnerable to digestive acids that could cause ulcerations and subsequent septicemia from any bacteria in the bowel. A certain level of mucus in the bowel is not only healthy but it's downright necessary...any agent that removes the mucus in the bowel would be a big detriment to health...

....and ACV just doesn't do that...sorry. I don't know where you got your info on that, but I'd have to see that one in black and white from a reliable source before believing in that. The bacilli in ACV actually attach to the mucosa and provide a probiotic effect on any new foods introduced into the digestive tract...that would be difficult to do if it was also stripping all the mucus away from that same mucosa.

ACV(with mother) can, however, help prevent coccidiosis:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...osis-and-other-poultry-diseases-in-chicks-acv


On the other hand, the use of mother vinegar does increase absorption of nutrients by increasing the number and size of villi in the intestines, thus increasing the total area capable of absorption and the capillaries that carry out this nutrient exchange.

http://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search/display.do?f=2010/KR/KR1001.xml;KR2009002225


Another interesting article on the use of ACV:

http://www.avianweb.com/Lactobacillus.htm

I did not know a bit about the ideal length of villi, or that ACV had any affect upon it. Or, that chicks had 'em, 'til now ~'-)

As to ACV reducing the viscosity and amounts of mucus w/in ... well ... just about anything that drinks it? ACV been used for years to break up mucus, as your mom probably did w/ you, but in the 'exactly how' column? It's suggested, in regard to poultry, to be the tannins w/in ACV, but I've used plain ol' vinegar to etch surfaces and remove films of all manner, and suspect that it's more the reduction of pH that's responsible, but w/o proof of my suspicion.

I didn't take enough biological chemistry in college to prove that one on my own. But, I did find a study on the viscosity of canin tracheal mucin glycoprotein, which was subjected to mild acid hydrolysis w/ aqueous acetic acid, which showed the complete removal of glycosidically bound sialic acid residues, while all other sugar residues remained intact. The result? Approximately 50% drop in the relative viscosity (nr) occurred.
Citation from PubMed (Click to show)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7999055


The concentration suggested, and the reasons you have doubts of, comes from the Mississippi Agricultural and Forestry Experiment Station, Mississippi State University Extension Service (man, that sure was a lot of issipps ... ~'-)
This information is also repeated almost verbatim at a different URL.

ASTRINGENT SOLUTION

This solution can be used to treat young birds that show non-typical disease symptoms of poor growth. The solution can also be given to birds suffering from respiratory diseases that produce a large amount of mucus exudate. This solution will help "cut through" the mucus and allow it to be expelled easier.

Two quarts of apple cider vinegar diluted into 100 gallons of water
(4 teaspoons/gallon)

The tannin in the apple cider vinegar aide in removing any mucus or coating from the mouth, throat, or intestinal tract. Nutrients and drugs are more readily absorbed. Offer this solution as the only drinking water source for two to three day intervals.


Verification of the dosage, and some support for my theory of the benefits of lowering the pH a point or two, can be found at University of Kentucky, College of Agriculture, which says:

Apple cider vinegar is rich in the vitamins, minerals and trace elements found in apples, especially potassium. In chickens it has been shown to lower the pH in the digestive tract which will make an environment less welcoming to pathogens reducing common infections and increasing resistance to disease. Typical inclusion levels are 1/8 – 1/4 of a teaspoon of apple cider vinegar to every 110 ml of water (or 4.5 - 8.5 teaspoons per gallon). This level of inclusion will also discourage algae growth. It should be given for 2-3 days at a time.


Also, in regard to breaking down mucus w/in humans as well, a few results from googling ...

How to Break Down Sinus Pressure & Mucus | eHow.com
www.ehow.com › Family Health
Try adding apple cider vinegar to the water you drink The acetic acid in the vinegar breaks down the thick mucus. 3. Use steam. Steam is a soothing way to ...

Infographic - Ten ways to use Apple Cider Vinegar
www.naturalnews.com/036142_apple_cider_vinegar_reference_grap...
Jun 12, 2012 – It also helps break up mucous throughout the body and helps ... daily intake of acetic acid (which is prevalent in apple cider vinegar). ....


One additional use, which is of great importance when birds are allowed to free range, is that it aids in the removal of toxins formed by Botulism bacteria (which I'm certain of, as this is also a treatment for humans) and, if I remember correctly, the fungus Aspergillus (which I'm not sure about).


And, the continuation of discussion, from w/in the same thread:

Quote:
Research is always a good thing; beyond helping us to better understand, it often exposes error/ommission and (as in this case) points that require further clarification. The shorter version of my excessively detailed post on the use of ACV provides the following direct quotes:
Indeed, my use of the word 'stripping' wasn't the best choice, despite this being essentially the action that's taking place. To better clarify, based upon my findings of fact, more appropriate wording might be:

 

[cowcreekgeek]

If you try the apple cider make sure it has the "mother" in it. Keep a good watch on whether or not anything else is changing any runny nose or goopy eyes or difference in their poo. It can change so fast with them. Hopefully it is just something got intheir noses and irratated them. My sick chickes are finally after 3 days starting to look alittle brighter

and ran to see me. Its terrible when they are sick.

Although the moher of vinegar, or mycoderma aceti, may provide some additional benefit by way of acetic acid bacteria, and certainly doesn't hurt the vinegar (or anything else, for that matter)? It's the tannin that ACV contains, and reducing the pH of the water to slightly acidic, that does what needs done to the mucus, and w/ respiratory illnesses ... for that reason? I grab the cheapest bottles of 5% apple cider vinegar I can get my hands on ~'-)

 

[maidenwolfx80]

Although the moher of vinegar, or mycoderma aceti, may provide some additional benefit by way of acetic acid bacteria, and certainly doesn't hurt the vinegar (or anything else, for that matter)? It's the tannin that ACV contains, and reducing the pH of the water to slightly acidic, that does what needs done to the mucus, and w/ respiratory illnesses ... for that reason? I grab the cheapest bottles of 5% apple cider vinegar I can get my hands on ~'-)

The filtered ACV has had so much stripped out of it that if you are using it for medical reasons and not just part of a maintenance routine it is best to have the unfiltered type. Bacteria fight bacteria, regular ACV will keep a ph level balanced but when you need it to do a job the mother is what does this job. Respiratory illness does not go away with a higher acidic level in the water, it needs to be fought off with good bacteria which is in the mother. Regular filtered ACV may be fine for routine issues but does not contain the needed supplies to fight when needed.

 

[cowcreekgeek]

The filtered ACV has had so much stripped out of it that if you are using it for medical reasons and not just part of a maintenance routine it is best to have the unfiltered type. Bacteria fight bacteria, regular ACV will keep a ph level balanced but when you need it to do a job the mother is what does this job. Respiratory illness does not go away with a higher acidic level in the water, it needs to be fought off with good bacteria which is in the mother. Regular filtered ACV may be fine for routine issues but does not contain the needed supplies to fight when needed.

That sound reasonable, in regard to the acedic acid bacteria's potential benefit, but I haven't seen any studies on it. And, no matter what you've been told to the contrary, the benefits of lowering the pH, and of the tannin itself, is well-proven and fully documented (even pasted a bit of my research directly w/in this very thread previously ~'-)

 

[maidenwolfx80]

That sound reasonable, in regard to the acedic acid bacteria's potential benefit, but I haven't seen any studies on it. And, no matter what you've been told to the contrary, the benefits of lowering the pH, and of the tannin itself, is well-proven and fully documented (even pasted a bit of my research directly w/in this very thread previously ~'-)

Well proven whether it be in a lab with chemicals and all kinds of unnatural things or many generations of personal experiences is still evidence. There needs no studies with doctors and politicians or what name you to show benifits of something natural such as filtered ACV. I never suggested that the ph being balanced was not a good thing. I am saying that when you need it for a job such as fighting something, the bateria play a significant role. Were you may have done your own research, that is fine, evidence and experience is what tells the story. Filtered, and processed ACV has the benefit or balancing the ph to help relax the mucus membranes. If they are irratated and inflamed it can help ease this. If there is a bacteria causing this condition then a good bacteria can fight this off in which case, if the bacteria is angry enough, left alone will only irratate the membranes again.

 

[cowcreekgeek]

Well proven whether it be in a lab with chemicals and all kinds of unnatural things or many generations of personal experiences is still evidence. There needs no studies with doctors and politicians or what name you to show benifits of something natural such as filtered ACV. I never suggested that the ph being balanced was not a good thing. I am saying that when you need it for a job such as fighting something, the bateria play a significant role. Were you may have done your own research, that is fine, evidence and experience is what tells the story. Filtered, and processed ACV has the benefit or balancing the ph to help relax the mucus membranes. If they are irratated and inflamed it can help ease this. If there is a bacteria causing this condition then a good bacteria can fight this off in which case, if the bacteria is angry enough, left alone will only irratate the membranes again.

I'm one of those that likes to dig most deeply into things ... ain't enough for me to just know somethin' works: I wanna know why, and how, so I can find other ways to make better use of it. I've no use for politicians, either, but those scientific studies ... the formation of theory, and testing to prove/disprove them? That's what somebody did, all those many years ago, with the Apple Cider Vinegar in the first place.

I've only just begun to research into the possible benefits of the acetic acid bacteria, which I believe to hold great promise ... but, for certain? It is primarily the tannin from the apples that reduces the viscosity of mucus, which can then be more easily expelled by the bird (or, anything else that drinks it ~'-)

Mother of vinegar, or Mycoderma aceti, contains the acetic acid bacteria (AAB), which are Gram-negative, aerobic, rod-shaped bacteria. The genus commonly used to produce ACV is Acetobacter, because of it's ability to convert ethanol to acetic acid in the presence of oxygen. I've already learned how to culture it, and specifically isolate this genus, and of another genus that can break down the vinegar completely ... how cool is that?

 

[weshard]

I too have a hen that sneezes, gone on for months. Used antibiotics in water seem to help a little. She now rests at night. None of the other chickens have it. She also has dirty butt which I cleaned with warm soapy water. She is a Golden Plumb rescue chicken so may have other issues as many of the have had. I have had many runts from the Golden Plumb barn next door to me.

I add Apple Cider Vinager in their water all year round. It keeps the water from going bad plus helps with their digestion as I understand it.

 

[maidenwolfx80]

I'm one of those that likes to dig most deeply into things ... ain't enough for me to just know somethin' works: I wanna know why, and how, so I can find other ways to make better use of it. I've no use for politicians, either, but those scientific studies ... the formation of theory, and testing to prove/disprove them? That's what somebody did, all those many years ago, with the Apple Cider Vinegar in the first place.

I've only just begun to research into the possible benefits of the acetic acid bacteria, which I believe to hold great promise ... but, for certain? It is primarily the tannin from the apples that reduces the viscosity of mucus, which can then be more easily expelled by the bird (or, anything else that drinks it ~'-)

Mother of vinegar, or Mycoderma aceti, contains the acetic acid bacteria (AAB), which are Gram-negative, aerobic, rod-shaped bacteria. The genus commonly used to produce ACV is Acetobacter, because of it's ability to convert ethanol to acetic acid in the presence of oxygen. I've already learned how to culture it, and specifically isolate this genus, and of another genus that can break down the vinegar completely ... how cool is that?

Knowing "somethin" works is the whole point. There is plenty of evidence and studies on the mother and why it does what it does. Maybe you havent looked hard enough? Doing science fair projects in order to treat a bird is too time consuming. I treat my animals with the knowledge passed down from generations of farmers, who have used those treatments for decades and were passed down from their fathers and so on and so on. An old timer can give more info about how to best treat and why and what the outcome was and if it were different due to seasons or weather than any science book could come close to, now that is cool! Today there are way too many people who over think things and try to over analyze things. Things passed down thru generation have been tried and here are the results in real words, not in numbers or tech words. People want to understand and know but in a way that someone else has tried and can give absolute knowledge and or advisories towards. There are alot of substances that help reduce or repel mucus, I study herbs and their cures and of course understand the apple inside and out. Nutritious and delicious yes and many different properties for healing and different ways of processing the apple will bring about different properties. Its great that you can study your heart out, wonderful, but one persons studies are just personal findings. Maybe since you dont know anything about the mother you can do some studies on it instead.

 

[cowcreekgeek]

Knowing "somethin" works is the whole point. There is plenty of evidence and studies on the mother and why it does what it does. Maybe you havent looked hard enough? Doing science fair projects in order to treat a bird is too time consuming. I treat my animals with the knowledge passed down from generations of farmers, who have used those treatments for decades and were passed down from their fathers and so on and so on. An old timer can give more info about how to best treat and why and what the outcome was and if it were different due to seasons or weather than any science book could come close to, now that is cool! Today there are way too many people who over think things and try to over analyze things. Things passed down thru generation have been tried and here are the results in real words, not in numbers or tech words. People want to understand and know but in a way that someone else has tried and can give absolute knowledge and or advisories towards. There are alot of substances that help reduce or repel mucus, I study herbs and their cures and of course understand the apple inside and out. Nutritious and delicious yes and many different properties for healing and different ways of processing the apple will bring about different properties. Its great that you can study your heart out, wonderful, but one persons studies are just personal findings. Maybe since you dont know anything about the mother you can do some studies on it instead.

First? I only *begin* w/ the time-tested knowledge of those generations before me, as I was raised on this farm I hope to continue, and was surrounded by those that farmed it long before we got here ... not that I claim to be anything more than a student of far too many things, who accumulates far too much information ~'-)

Over-[thinking/analyzing] can be blamed on my father, who never had a problem given to him w/o finding a solution in his 38 years of doin' the same thing. Or, on a few of my grade school teachers, who encouraged me to prove my alternatives before the class, rather than failing me for not using the formula provided w/in the textbooks. But, don't blame my mom ... she's about as frustrated by it as you appear to be.

As for your final comment? I repeat my exact words:
... because it only stands to good reason that anyone who hopes to better understand AAB should first study more closely the vinegar it produces, which I have, and have provided far more than my own personal opinions, or just one person's findings, or what other people told me -- but the very "absolute knowledge and or advisories" you rightly suggest folks need.

And, I wasn't gonna play the pot/kettle card, but ... you argue against my efforts to learn new/different things, even as you admit to doin' the very same thing, albeit in an entirely different way.

SoOo ... w/o over[thinking/analyzing] this debate, it doesn't appear to be about ACV, MOV, AAB or any other acronym ... instead? It's over my refusing to blindly accept at face value what somebody told somebody else to tell other folks to do. And, if so? I can give you a fairly long list of folks that have told others to warn anybody else that such arguments are absolutely futile, when it comes to me ~'-)