My Duck May Be Egg Bound

[AmandaVirus]

Oh, absolutely! She has been getting warm baths everyday, and I've been giving her oyster shell along with the bone meal everyday, too. Although she hasn't shown much interest in the oyster shell. I also haven't been able to get her to take her antibiotic, the little spoiled brat can taste it and spits it out. I even tried crushing it up on top of some kale, but she takes one taste and shakes her head. I'm not sure if it's really doing anything, though. It was mostly for a precaution.

Should the baths be lukewarm? I heard it should be about their body temp, so that's what I've been doing.

 

[AmandaVirus]

We are going back to the vet today, the vet seems to be persistent in that she cannot be egg bound if she is still passing soft/thin shelled eggs. So we are doing an x-ray to see what the problem is. I'm still confident that it's an egg but, we'll see.

 

[Miss Lydia]

We are going back to the vet today, the vet seems to be persistent in that she cannot be egg bound if she is still passing soft/thin shelled eggs. So we are doing an x-ray to see what the problem is. I'm still confident that it's an egg but, we'll see.

Let us know what you find out..

 

[AmandaVirus]

The x-ray showed there was an egg, the vet is still insisting it's impossible to have an egg pass another, especially one of that size. And she said it looks like she will be laying this one tonight, what doesn't make sense to me is the eggs that she is laying are small and very thin, the one I'm feeling (that showed up on the x-ray) is big. And I can still feel this egg in her immediately after she lays them. The vet recognized this, too.

Not to mention Misty is sick for about 3-5 hours before laying the soft/thin shelled eggs, she lays around straining, doesn't eat, limps; when she does this I feel the egg up by her leg, but the vet says I could be feeling her gizzard or something, but after she passes the soft egg I feel this one move back down near her vent.The vet keeps telling me it's normal for them to feel a bit sick before laying an egg, I've seen my ducks multiple times when they need to lay an egg, it doesn't go on for hours and they just go and find a nest and lay it within an hour. She was also saying to give the calcium a month to work, it doesn't seem to me it could be a calcium problem. I forgot to mention to her that the last normal egg (on Oct. 9) and every egg she's laid before that had a very thick shell, way harder than my other ducks eggs, then she stopped laying all together and after about a week she started laying soft eggs almost every night. I would think (I'm no expert, obviously) if it was calcium, the egg shells would start to get thinner and then soft, not go from normal thick shelled eggs to no eggs at all.

I don't know what to do from here, it sucks watching her look so uncomfortable for hours every night, last night she was so exhausted immediately after laying the soft egg she laid down tucked her leg in and went to sleep, she didn't even lift her head up went I reached in and got the egg. The vet trips have costed us almost $300 already, with no progress. I can't afford to keep going back to the vet when nothing gets done. I'm still at where I was to begin with.

I'm going to keep giving her lots of calcium everyday, as the vet said you cant overdose them on it, and hope it works itself out. Luckily Misty is acting perfectly healthy and happy most of the time.

Thanks for all the help and support, any other advise is greatly appreciated!

 

[Amiga]

I wonder if the vet would be willing to have a telephone consult. There is a reputable duck vet in Mystic, Connecticut. I don't know if they would be willing to consult, but that was an idea I had.

 

[BirdNerd101]

Update?

 

[AmandaVirus]

Oh, I forgot about this thread, sorry! Misty is currently sitting on eggs and hasn't been laying, we're hoping that having this break of laying and giving extra calcium will do the trick. It was in fact a different egg each time (I kind of feel like an idiot for being so persistent that it wasn't) as I do not feel any more in her now. I'm worried it might be a genetic thing for her laying soft eggs. If after she is done nesting and she goes back to laying soft eggs again, I wonder if there's a way to stop her from laying all together. The vet did talk about some hormone injection they could give her, but it was only temporary.

 

[Amiga]

I would be boosting her calcium and vitamin D intake a bit while she is not laying. Ducks store up calcium in their bodies to an extent. I don't think the whole process is yet well understood. But during this rest time, she still needs calcium for heart, bones and nervous system. And if her last few eggs were soft, she is depleted, I think.

So far I have had no problems with this approach with my own flock.

 

[casportpony]

• What is a healthy diet for my birds? Are pellets, seeds, and/or other foods the answer? The controversy rages. Knowledge of nutritional requirements for companion birds is still in its infancy, but there is no question that many vitamins and minerals are required to maintain both health and life.
  Too much of a nutrient can be as dangerous as too little. Moreover, some nutrients work together to perform vital functions and must be present in the proper ratios to each other. Calcium, Phosphorus and Vitamin D3 are examples of such elements. They not only work together, but too much or too little of one of them can affect the body's ability to use the others. Thus a bird given a diet rich in calcium can show signs of calcium deficiency if the phosphorus or Vitamin D3 levels are not in proper balance. So it is important to understand what each of these nutrients do, how their levels in the body affect each other, what problems are caused by improper levels and how much of each are found in various foods.
  What Do Calcium, Phosphorus and Vitamin D3 Do?
  Calcium
  Comprising about 1.5% of a bird's weight, calcium is the predominant mineral in the body. Calcium is used for bone formation, egg shell production and blood clotting. It also affects the heart, muscles and nerves, as well as some of the body's enzyme systems. Most of the body's calcium is found in the skeleton where it comprises about 1/3 the weight of dried bone. Calcium can also be found in body fluids. Skeletal calcium is comprised mainly of calcium phosphate with some calcium carbonate. Calcium carbonate is the main compound found in egg shells.
  The recommended allowance of calcium for a maintenance diet is 0.50%. Higher amounts are required for breeding and growth.
  Too little calcium can cause demineralization of bone (fracturing), soft egg shells, and inadequate calcium levels in the blood. Although some birds on all-seed diets can experience hypocalcemic seizures, these seizures are rare except in African Greys. Deficient diets can be supplemented with calcium syrup in the drinking water, sprinkled on seeds or soft foods or administered directly; giving high calcium foods such as bones, cheese or yogurt or sprinkling calcium powder on soft foods. Care must be taken with vitamin supplements not to provide too much calcium.
  It has been shown that calcium levels in the diet of over 1% decrease the utilization of proteins, fats, vitamins, phosphorus, magnesium, iron, iodine, zinc and manganese. At a level of 2.5% in the diet nephrosis, hypercalcemia, hypophosphotemia, visceral and renal gout, and decreased food intake have been observed.
  Cockatiels are very sensitive to high calcium and high calcium/Vitamin D3 levels. Cockatiels, budgerigars, some grass parakeets and finches live in arid climates and eat mainly lower nutrient, seed diets. They have evolved to conserve nutrients and water and thus they may be more sensitive to high levels of calcium and D3 in their diets. Birds of the neotropics, with access to abundant, varied foods, have not needed to conserve nutrients in their body and may have higher daily dietary needs.
  Calcium absorption occurs mainly in the upper intestine and is regulated by Vitamin D3. Some absorption also occurs in the lower intestine. A 2:1 ratio of calcium to available phosphorus in the diet is recommended for maintenance of proper bone tissue. High protein diets and more acid in the intestines appear to aid in calcium absorption. Compounds such as phytates (in cereal grains), oxalates (spinach, rhubarb and related plants) and phosphates reduce absorption of calcium. High fat diets may produce fatty acids in the intestines which can reduce available calcium by forming insoluble calcium soaps. High-fat seeds (eg unsprouted sunflower, safflower) may also impede calcium uptake in the the intestines.
  Phosphorus
  Phosphorus may affect more biological sytems than any other element. It is an important element in many body functions including bone formation, acid-base balance, metabolism of fat and carbohydrates, egg formation and in the proteins, carbohydrates and lipids used throughout the body.
  As much as 70% of the phosphorus in the diet may be unusable by a bird. Phosphorus from animal products or inorganic supplements is almost completely usable, but phosphorus from plant sources is considered to have only about 30% availability. Plant sources often contain phosphorus combined with phytin, and animals such as birds lack the enzyme phytase necessary to make the phosphorus available.
  The recommended allowance of available phosphorus for a maintenance diet is 0.25% (0.40% total phosphorus). Higher amounts are required for breeding and growth.
  Too high levels of phosphorus will interfere with absorption of calcium. A ratio of 2:1 calcium to available phosphorus in the diet plus adequate Vitamin D3 is recommended. Phosphorus is readily available from numerous sources, making inadequate levels in the diet unlikely.
  Vitamin D3
  Vitamin D3 is essential in regulating absorption and excretion of calcium and phosphorus. This is especially important when the levels (ratios) of calcium and phosphorus in the diet are unbalanced. D3 may also regulate the amount of alkaline phosphatase in the blood and play a role in cell differentiation and immune system regulation.
  There are 2 main forms of Vitamin D. Vitamin D2 comes mainly from plants. Vitamin D3 is produced exclusively in a bird's body when sunlight reacts with Vitamin D precursors in the diet. The ultraviolet rays of sunlight or an artificial UV light source transform Vitamin D precursors in the bird's skin to D3. Glass windows filter out the sun's UV rays. Since Vitmain D3 is 30-40 times more potent than D2, plant sources are considered insignificant as a source of Vitamin D for birds. Studies with poultry show sufficient Vitamin D3 can be produced for growth of chicks with 11-45 minutes of sunshine (not filtered by glass) each day. D3 formed in the skin acts as a hormone in the metabolism of calcium and phosphorus.
  The recommended allowance of Vitamin D3 for a maintenance diet is 1000 IU/kg. Higher amounts are required for breeding and growth.
  Lack of Vitamin D3 can result in low calcium levels and produces similar symptoms. These include thin or soft shelled eggs, decreased egg production and hatching, and even seizures and bone fractures. In chicks, lack of D3 can result in bent or easily fractured bones. Diseases affecting the liver and kidneys can hinder the bird's ability to produce the enzymes necessary to convert Vitamin D into the D3. At these times, a D3 supplement may be beneficial.
  Too much Vitamin D3 (hypervitaminosis D3) can cause calcification, nephrosis and gout. Two studies suggest that high levels of Vitamin D3 in young macaws (especially the blue and gold and the hyacinth) result in crop stasis, enlarged kidneys, gout and other signs. Other species given the same diets showed no effects. Another study showed cockatiels were also sensitive to high Vitamin D3 levels.
  At 4-10 times recommended Vitamin D levels, effects can include: increased calcium and bone absorption, hypercalcemia, decreased PTH, mineralization of soft tissues, nephrocalcinosis and polyuria
  Balancing Calcium, Phosphorus and Vitamin D3
  As mentioned above, a proper bird's diet requires calcium and phosphorus in a ratio of 2 : 1 calcium to available phosphorus. Ranges of 0.5 : 1 to 2.5 : 1 can be tolerated by birds. Ratios of 1:1 are required to support adequate growth, 1.5 : 1 to maintain adequate serum calcium, phosphate and alkaline phosphatase values and 2 : 1 to achieve maximum bone density. Egg laying hens will require higher calcium to phosphorus ratios during laying periods.
  Vitamin D3 is essential to regulate and enable absorption of calcium and phosphorus in the body. This is especially important when the calcium to phosphorus ratios are unbalanced. The D3 will help to regulate the amount of calcium and phosphorus retained in the bird's body. Vitamin D3 levels in the diet should be about 1000 IU/kg.
  Pellet manufacturers have incorporated nutrients in their products, making it easier to feed a healthy balanced diet. However, there are variances among brands and concern that pellets have not been tested over time and are not a complete diet. Too much is still unknown about dietary needs. Many owners use pellets as a portion of the diet and supplement with fresh foods, seeds, grains, birdy breads and other supplements. Others avoid pellets entirely, providing a varied and nutritious diet and relying on the body's natural mechanisms to balance the use of the nutrients.
  Be sure your bird has an annual exam which can disclose problems. Observe your birds for signs of vitamin and mineral deficiencies and excesses. If you suspect a problem see your vet and discuss changes to the diet.
  Food Sources of Calcium, Phosphorus and Vitamin D3
  Seeds are usually calcium deficient as can be seen in their calcium/phosphorus ratios. Millet 1 : 6, oats 1 : 8, sunflower seeds 1 : 7. Muscle meat is low in calcium and high in phosphorus 1 : 20.
  
  Sources of Nutrients
  Source: Avian Medicine: The Principles and Application. Based on
  information from the National Research Council and a Kaytee Technical Bulletin
  Vitamin/
  Mineral Excellent
  (over 20 times requirement) Good
  (over 2 times requirement) Adequate
  (1/2-2 times requirement)
  Calcium
  
  
  
  
  Phosphorus
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Vitamin D3 Calcium carbonate
  (cuttlebone, eggshell)
  Bone Meal
  Dicalcium phosphate
  
  Bone Meal
  Dicalcium phosphate
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Fish liver oil
  Liver
  Fish oil Fish & meat meals
  Kelp
  Alfalfa meal
  Whey
  
  Fish & meat meals
  Brewer's yeast
  Dried whey
  Wheat Germ Meal
  Peanuts
  Pumpkin Seeds
  Most oil seeds
  Nuts
  
  Eggs (especially yolk) Dried milk
  Cheese
  Oil type seeds
  Most nuts
  
  Corn Gluten
  Cereal grains
  Egg
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Dried milk
  
  The Midwest Bird & Exotic Animal Hospital in Westchester, IL has compiled information on a number of foods. The Calcium and Phosphorus contents are for 1 cup of food.
  
  Good Calcium Sources
  Food CA (mg) P (mg) Ca Ratio
  Beet Greens
  Broccoli Leaves
  Broccoli Stem
  Cabbage (outside green leaves)
  Celery
  Chard
  Chinese Cabbage
  Collards (cooked)
  Dandelion Greens
  Endive
  Kale
  Kohlrabi
  Lettuce Dark Green Leaf
  Mustard Greens
  Orange or Tangerine
  Parsley
  Spinach
  Turnip Greens
  Watercress
  Watermelon
  Yellow Wax Beans 188
  349
  111
  429
  44
  300
  400
  14
  168
  104
  390
  390
  25
  582
  48
  46
  156
  694
  53
  33
  63 80
  89
  47
  72
  32
  100
  72
  150
  70
  39
  134
  120
  14
  168
  18
  30
  92
  98
  15
  9
  46 1:0.4
  1:0.26
  1:0.4
  1:0.17
  1:0.7
  1:0.33
  1:0.2
  1:0.4
  1:0.4
  1:0.4
  1:0.4
  1:0.3
  1:0.56
  1:0.29
  1:0.4
  1:0.65
  1:0.6
  1:0.14
  1:0.3
  1:0.27
  1:0.7
  
  Moderate Calcium Sources
  Food CA (mg) P (mg) Ca Ratio
  Apples
  Blackberries
  Blueberries
  Cabbage (inside white leaves)
  Cantaloupe
  Carrots
  Green Beans
  Guavas
  Okra
  Pears
  Raspberries
  Rutabaga
  Squash
  Strawberries
  Turnips
  Yams 10
  43
  33
  46
  64
  90
  55
  15
  144
  15
  82
  99
  36
  68
  112
  44 10
  43
  26
  34
  60
  82
  55
  15
  124
  18
  76
  75
  30
  56
  94
  50 1:1
  1:1
  1:0.8
  1:0.74
  1:0.9
  1:0.9
  1:1
  1:1
  1:0.86
  1:1.2
  1:0.93
  1:0.75
  1:0.8
  1:0.8
  1:0.84
  1:1
  
  Poor Calcium Sources
  Food CA (mg) P (mg) Ca Ratio
  Apricots
  Asparagus
  Bananas
  Beets
  Broccoli Flowers
  Brussels Sprouts
  Cauliflower
  Cherries (pitted)
  Corn
  Cucumber
  Eggplant
  Grapes
  Lettuce (head, iceberg)
  Mushrooms
  Parsnips
  Peaches
  Peas
  Pineapple
  Plums
  Pumpkin
  Radish
  Sweet Potato
  Tomato 15
  28
  7
  56
  85
  36
  28
  19
  16
  10
  22
  19
  17
  19
  152
  10
  56
  12
  20
  46
  21
  19
  11 21
  70
  22
  84
  140
  161
  46
  35
  206
  21
  62
  35
  40
  131
  152
  19
  254
  12
  27
  100
  29
  45
  29 1:1.4
  1:2.5
  1:3.1
  1:1.5
  1:1.65
  1:4.48
  1:1.6
  1:1.58
  1:12.9
  1:2.1
  1:2.8
  1:1.8
  1:2.4
  1:6.9
  1:1.3
  1:1.9
  1:4.5
  1:2.9
  1:1.4
  1:2.2
  1:1.4
  1:2.4
  1:2.6
  References:
  Avian Medicine: Principles and Application by Branson W. Ritchie, Greg J. Harrison and Linda R. Harrison, 1994, chapters 3 and 31
  Calcium Sources, Midwest Bird & Exotic Animal Hospital, Westchester, IL
  Nutrient Allowance Recommendations for Pet Birds, Kaytee Technical Bulletin, R.N. Brue, 1991
  Nutrient Composition of Common Foods in Aviculture, Kaytee Technical Bulletin, R.N. Brue, 1989
  Hypervitaminosis D in Baby Macaws, AAV Proceedings, K.Takeshita, D.L. Graham, S. Silverman, 1986
  Cockatiel (Nymphicus hollandicus) Nutrition, Journal of Nutrition, T.E. Roudybush, C.R. Grau, 1991
  [COLOR=000000]Winged Wisdom Note: Carol Highfill and husband Ken are the owners of two conures, four umbrella cockatoos and are the creators of the Birds n Ways, Winged Wisdom and Cockatoo Heaven web sites.[/COLOR]

 

[Amiga]

What jumped out to me was "phytates in cereal grains."