My Salmon Faverolles Pullet is Black - Help Me Understand the Genetics

[OhZark Biddies]

This link has a statement that I interpret as saying that MI/MI in a wheaten female causes “self black”... but I’m unsure what that is:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/cream-legbars.509483/page-1016#post-16877213

Here’s the statement I’m referring to from that link:
“Ml/ml+ has little effect on eWh/eWh females. Homozygotes approach self blackness, but the salmon pigment of the wildtype and wheaten females remain evident. “

 

[OhZark Biddies]

That all I’ve got for now... just food for thought!

 

[ChickieChickieMama]

That all I’ve got for now... just food for thought!

Thanks for the encouragement! I admit I had to take a step back...I found myself with about fifty page tabs open on all sorts of details and finally had to just clear my mind (which I did by making a chicken swing and working to fix up the old stables).

I (of course ) came across all of the same discussions as you did too, except for the last one which I will take some time to read at greater depth. Thanks for sharing! What struck me with all of this talk of Ml is that while it has potentially little effect on female wheaten, this also means that it generally doesn't affect down colour, which is consistent with my Vera as a baby.

I confess I still don't understand why my girl isn't really laced...can someone please explain that to me? I understand that some chickens appear to be but aren't, but how do you know that Vera isn't? To my untrained eye, the close up of her feathering looks just like the example I posted, which seemed to be from a reputable source...

Thanks everyone!

 

[The Moonshiner]

With something like the lacing or not you'd have to ask yourself if it is lacing where did it come from?
Lacing would mean at least one parent was carrying it. That would mean your bird would be a mix breed.
Then you'd have to ask yourself is it a mixed breed? Everything else looks pure SF so then you'd have to figure what SF features does she have that would carry over if she was a mix and is there any that wouldn't.
Then if it does seem she's a possible mix what kind of laced breed could cross with a SF but not change her features or the wheaton pattern part that is correct?

 

[OhZark Biddies]

Andalusian, d'Anvers, Wyandotte, Orpington, Silkie(ok not the best example), Ameraucana Cochin you name it. No pattern gene. The lacing on laced blues is just caused by melanism not the pattern gene.

I recently found this post that states that Andalusians do contain the pattern gene:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...on-about-andalusian-blue.701489/#post-9525623

 

[OhZark Biddies]

With something like the lacing or not you'd have to ask yourself if it is lacing where did it come from?
Lacing would mean at least one parent was carrying it. That would mean your bird would be a mix breed.
Then you'd have to ask yourself is it a mixed breed? Everything else looks pure SF so then you'd have to figure what SF features does she have that would carry over if she was a mix and is there any that wouldn't.
Then if it does seem she's a possible mix what kind of laced breed could cross with a SF but not change her features or the wheaton pattern part that is correct?

Here's a working theory on how Pg could have been introduced...

I wonder if the patterning gene was introduced in making blue salmon faverolles at some point, where a blue Andalusian or something similar was used to introduce blue.

In breeding 2 blue salmon faverolles there would be some number that don't inherit the blue gene, and so they would be standard salmon color and hiding the pattern gene. So the breeder sold those as regular salmon faverolles.

This could have also been the source of the Melanotic (Ml).

So then at some point pullets start popping up that are heterogeneous for Pg and are heterogeneous for Ml. These are the the darker pullets that many post about on this site, when they start to worry that they have a cockerel.

But then the subject pullet called Vera comes along and is homogeneous for Pg and Ml, and it shows as the dark laced look that she has.
​

Just a theory.

 

[keesmom]

To me Vera does not look to have lacing. It more resembles the white ticking I have seen on the chests of salmon males at times. Sometimes it appears when they are young, others get more white with age. I have a ton of pictures but unfortunately they are still on my defunct computer. I have to get them off sometime - I also have pictures of bantam salmon cockerels that were red and white (NO black) as juveniles that matured into normal looking salmons. Also a bantam blue salmon bird that was half male, half female.

I do know Andalusians were not used in creating blue salmons. Orpingtons were the source of blue.

 

[ChickieChickieMama]

To me Vera does not look to have lacing. It more resembles the white ticking I have seen on the chests of salmon males at times. Sometimes it appears when they are young, others get more white with age. I have a ton of pictures but unfortunately they are still on my defunct computer. I have to get them off sometime - I also have pictures of bantam salmon cockerels that were red and white (NO black) as juveniles that matured into normal looking salmons. Also a bantam blue salmon bird that was half male, half female.

I do know Andalusians were not used in creating blue salmons. Orpingtons were the source of blue.

Oh, just to be clear because it looks like I wasn't, I don't think she has white lacing, I think she has black lacing with white mottling...which was why I started to think Tolbunt. Her feathers are really soft so they move around a bit making the pattern not quite as clear to see from afar, but up close you can see (I think).

Here's a reference picture I found online :

And here is a pic of Vera's feathers:

Isn't that black lacing? The only difference to me between it and the reference picture is that Vera's base colour is much darker brown than the gold in the example.

Also there has been a lot of mention lately in this thread of blue...I don't think Vera has blue, does anyone else, or was that an unrelated side reference?

Thanks!

 

[OhZark Biddies]

Also there has been a lot of mention lately in this thread of blue...I don't think Vera has blue, does anyone else, or was that an unrelated side reference?

No Vera has no blue. But recall that when you mate a blue rooster to a blue hen you get 25% black, 50% blue, and 25% splash. So my thinking was that if the blue birds had black lacing , then the 25% of them that come out black would have the lacing gene also.

I was just theorizing that lacing gene might have found it's way into some lines of salmon faverolles, via the blue salmon faverolles, or more specifically the 25% of the offspring that did no get a copy of the blue gene, and looked like a standard salmon faverolles.

Also I found this concerning the combination of Pg & Ml

http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html#gen_mut_eumeldiluters

 

[OhZark Biddies]

I do know Andalusians were not used in creating blue salmons. Orpingtons were the source of blue.

Ahh, okay that's good to know. I assumed that Andalusians are the original source of blue that we see in all other breeds, whether it was directly or indirectly, and so bringing the Pg gene forward would be likely or at least plausible.

But it seems the black lacking appears in blue orpingtons as well, so I would think that the theory that the pattern gene came into at least some lines of salmon faverolles through blue salmon faverolles would still be possible.