My White Leghorn - What to improve?

[mrjoltcola]

Look, everyone here has been helpful. So no need to start squabbling about words. Emails / posts don't communicate emotion very well.

When I say >> I didn't say I _wanted_ to mix colors. I asked "what about it"

my intent is to gain information. I am still looking for an answer on that, so let me rephrase it and reiterate my question which is honest.


What is wrong with taking a <insert favorite color here> Leghorn that has exceptional phenotype, and cross it with white to achieve white? I always thought the white and the light brown leghorns have most all the colors in them anyway.

 

[The Moonshiner]

You sounded condescending to me, so I responded a bit defensively.

>>   "[COLOR=333333]Why would you want to mix colors?[/COLOR]

That read as a rhetorical question, intended to communicate something to me. Whether it communicated what you intended is anyone's guess. I took it the way it appeared. If you don't like that fact, then avoid using questions like that to answer questions like mine, and just speak plainly and politely. Unless you really did mean what you asked, in which case, my response is "Because in my experience, a white leghorn + any other color = a white leghorn" so I didn't see an issue with it, but I asked because I wasn't sure. The underlying reason being to take a better quality bird and paint it white. Pretty basic to the thread's intent.

All this, with the caveat that I am plainly not an expert in genetics, so asking me "why" like that either means, neither are you, OR it means that you see something that I don't and in that case, I'd welcome you to educate me.

I'm pretty easy to get along with, but I don't care for online condescension. If you didn't mean it like that, my apologies, I'll try not to be so defensive if you will do likewise.

Its all good.
No I wasnt being condescending or anything like that I was really just asking why out of curiosity.
I didnt know if it was because you had something on hand or what. Im a leghorn fan from way back myself. Ive raised a lot of leghorns. Just about every color available. Some towards showing and some for production and when lucky both in the same.
Ive crossed colors. With some i never cross certain colors and with some I never cross colors at all. While others ive crossed colors because it was the best options.
Ive breed up poor birds when I didnt have any other options and ive thrown out whole groups of others when I didnt think it would be worth it.

 

[mrjoltcola]

Its all good.
No I wasnt being condescending or anything like that I was really just asking why out of curiosity.
I didnt know if it was because you had something on hand or what. Im a leghorn fan from way back myself. Ive raised a lot of leghorns. Just about every color available. Some towards showing and some for production and when lucky both in the same.
Ive crossed colors. With some i never cross certain colors and with some I never cross colors at all. While others ive crossed colors because it was the best options.
Ive breed up poor birds when I didnt have any other options and ive thrown out whole groups of others when I didnt think it would be worth it.

Awesome. I have to remind myself that tone isn't communicated well on the Internet. Sorry!

Yes, to answer your question, its because I both have some light browns on hand, plus had access to some better leghorns (buff and light brown) that I was considering.

 

[Junglefowlboss]

Haha. I feel so lost in this conversation its making me feel lowly about myself but thats besides that point. I want to learn about what makes a standard breed standard or the expectations of what its desirable traits are. So continue dont include me just curious.

 

[mrjoltcola]

Haha. I feel so lost in this conversation its making me feel lowly about myself but thats besides that point. I want to learn about what makes a standard breed standard or the expectations of what its desirable traits are. So continue dont include me just curious.

You can't be much more lowly than me, so don't feel alone.

That is why I posted the thread, to get feedback from more experienced breeders. Hopefully I can keep the chip off my shoulder long enough to listen.

I've been raising birds for many years, but only in the last 5 years have I started to realize how much there is to it.

 

[mrjoltcola]

Does anyone have any Single Comb Whites, Reds, Browns, Blacks or Buffs that would be willing to sell me some chicks or eggs? I am getting some Rose Comb chicks from RCLeghorn, but also looking for SC.

 

[3riverschick]

I was over at Google advanced book search today. One of my fav authors, judge wid card did a wonderful series of articles in vol. 30, 1912 of American poultry advocate mag on Standard Breed Types. Different breed each article. Illustrated. Judge Card wrote the classic book on "Breeding Laws". Also readable on Google books.
Judge Card had a great gift for making breeding poultry simple.
Best,
Karen

 

[gojira]

This is why I like the Sussex fowl much. It's production virtues Re so closely aligned with the breed hallmarks. Take Trunorth heritage Hatchery in British Columbia Canada for example
Emily is using population genetics to breed utility back into her Light Sussex.
They also win at the shows. Light Sussex are such a great beginners breed
eWh based Silver Columbian. Docile, easy keepers, rich literary history. Wide gene pool, Lots of veteran breeders willing to help even if it is not their breed.
Best,
Karen

As far as True North Heritage Hatchery, they do not seem much different than any other hatchery, other than they are small. The pictures on their website did not seen any better than any other hatchery. If you read closely, the Light Sussex that do well in shows were need by someone else with birds obtained from True North. They do not say if other birds were crossed in or not.

I was unaware that Light Sussex had a wide gene pool and lots of veteran breeders. Do the veteran breeders still show? I am not sure I have seen any shown at shows I have attended. The Light Sussex I have seen were in need of lots of help. Granted, that can be said for many breeds and varieties.

 

[gojira]

I was over at Google advanced book search today. One of my fav authors, judge wid card did a wonderful series of articles in vol. 30, 1912 of American poultry advocate mag on Standard Breed Types. Different breed each article. Illustrated. Judge Card wrote the classic book on "Breeding Laws". Also readable on Google books.
Judge Card had a great gift for making breeding poultry simple.
Best,
Karen

Breeding was simple back then. So much has been learned since then, but most people on this forum ignore it.

 

[The Moonshiner]

[COLOR=333333]What is wrong with taking a Leghorn that has exceptional phenotype, and cross it with white to achieve white? I always thought the white and the light brown leghorns have most all the colors in them anyway.[/COLOR] [COLOR=333333] [/COLOR]

Maybe you missed my answer earlier. Just my opinion from my experience is that the best leghorns i see are whites. The best production lines and the best show lines. I would not cross any colors into a white line because i just dont think i could find better in the colors then i could find in other whites. For me even if i had better colored then my whites i could easily go find what i needed in another line of whites then put up with the time and effort to get the crosses back to pure white. As far as browns having the other colors in them. That is not true at all. Browns have no other colors in them and theres not much that could hide unseen in them. I have heard of whites having all these other colors hiding underneath. I have not seen it no where near the extend i have heard. Ive bred many whites and crossed colors with white trying to improve the colors not the whites. Its been a pain for me to get back to where i wanted once i started crossing whites with colors. So much so that i wont do it again. There are sometimes things that have popped out that i didnt expect. I use browns mostly when crossing colors because browns are simple to work with because they dont have a lot of unseen genes going on. You said the browns have all the other colors in them. If that were true they would be one i would stay away from for crosses. If you start crossing colors that have a lot of genes going on to make them the color they are then thats a lot of different genes youll have to breed back out. And a bunch will be able to stay unseen which is a real pain down the line. If you start crossing colors it will take at least a couple generations to get them back. If its complex colors it will take at least 2 or 3 generations and a ton of chicks. Sometimes even longer , a ton of chicks, test breedings, etc. Its just a lot of work so if possible its better to seek out new birds of the color you want. Even if it takes a year or two to find them youll still come out ahead time wise. Back to your whites.... You can cross them with the browns. When ive done it ive got white pullets with a few black splotches here and there and some breast color from the browns showing through. The cockerels have random black but a lot of leakage in the hackles, saddle feathers etc. Ive bred those back to whites and got some pure whites in the offspring. Ive bred the first crosses together and have gotten white chicks but less percentage wise then breeding back to whites. That cross is fairly easy to work with if you want to go that route. I would not cross the whites with reds or buffs they will be a pain. Thats my take on it but again i find it hard to understand how it would be easier for anyone to find better built colored leghorns over white leghorns. Believe me its hard to find good buffs, reds, blacks etc.