Name That Color.

[PeepsCA]

Honestly, I think the Pied gene plays a roll in it somehow... (since all of my "Teddy Bear" keets are all at least slightly Pied AND it occurs in more colors than just the Pearl Grey), but when I brought that point up back in my original questioning on the subject I was told no, that it had to do with Royal Purple and Pearl Grey genes.

At that time I had been hatching keets from a flock consisting of only Pearl Greys, Royal Purples and a few Buff Dundottes - no Pieds at all and over the years I had NEVER hatched a single "Teddy Bear" from this gene pool of birds. Last year I hatched out over 300 keets from a mixed age flock of those 3 colors, and hmm not a single "Teddy Bear" keet to be seen. All were normally marked/colored keets, both Pearl Grey and Royal Purples, and 2 Lavenders.

There are no Royal Purples and no Pearl Greys in the breeding flock I'm hatching the "Teddy Bear" keets out of this year, and they are all unrelated to last year's flock. So obviously the person that told me that it's because of the Royal Purple and Pearl Grey color genes really has no clue how or why it happens, even tho they boast about being very knowledgeable about Guinea Fowl genetics, lol

I didn't think you’d mind Southern Oaks that we went off topic a little... we’re still discussing colors,markings and ID'ing keets, plus everyone that hatches these odd looking/colored keets may learn something from this thread or maybe even solve the "Teddy Bear" keet mystery for us lol

 

[perchie.girl]

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Rollyard this is a very interesting thread to me because in the past I have only had Pearl Guineas. And even then I hadn't a clue about them other than how to feed and house. And that they were fun to watch. Lately I have been doing quite a bit of reading on domestic vs wild. Wild guineas are good mothers Domestics are not. Wild guineas males protect their females when setting on the nest. And take up some of the task of rearing the keets. And often the bachelor guineas will move in and help care for the brood.

Understanding some of this has helped me understand how much different and similar the domestic guinea is. Part of that understanding is the understanding of color. By breeding for color we are changing the genome. For example an experiment was done with foxes raised for fur in Russia... I am going to set aside the whole ethical part of that. Foxes raised in captivity remain wild animals even though they are accustomed to being fed and housed they are not domesticated. The experiment was to take the ones that showed a more submissive nature and breed those together. The next generation the same thing was done. Within a short amount of time the Color of the foxes changed. So did the tails. They became curlier. They were becoming more doglike. here is a synopsis of the study. http://sahelhound.com/2008/12/31/belyaev-temperament-breeding-experiment/

Coming back to Guineas. We have only started domesticating guineas relatively speaking. And the more we experiment with color I am wondering how this is changing their behavior. Are they getting quieter?? Are they more predictable?? Already we are getting color differentiation between males and females within the Buff Dondette color. Not completely predictable like Sex Links in chickens. But its coming.

Don't get me wrong I love the different colors. I just am enjoying seeing the evolution happening now.... Similar to what I am certain happened thousands of years ago when someone decided to breed a chicken that was a better layer and that was easier to keep confined..... Better with hot climates.... better with cold climates....

Its like living anthropology. Or Sociology with poultry....

 

[southern oaks]

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rollyard, Thanks for posting that info, it was very interesting to read, even tho it did confuse the heck out of me. Please continue to share with us.
ANd PeepsCA, I have had about 4 of the "teddy bear" and all i started out with during this season, were Pearl Greys, Pied pearl Grey, and that one buff.
hope that helps you to narrow it down with me being so limited to my original colors. I ended up with the Pearl Greys, Pied pearl greys, and the "teddy bear" I love all the info on here. I just read and read and absorb as much as I can from all the more experienced. BTW have 42 eggs in bator now and pied is laying again. I have one question for you. I have been taking all but 2 eggs from her a day. Today, she was gone early. Like about 7 am. And she seems to be setting already and could only have 2-3 eggs. does that mean she is going to stop laying?

 

[PeepsCA]

Aha... see, there's the PIED gene in the breeding mix with your "Teddy Bear" keets too!

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It could mean she's going broody... even on just a couple eggs, and of so yes she will stop laying. My experience with my free range Hens has been that they will lay 20-30 eggs (which I collect and of course bait the nest with a few old marked eggs or duds from the incubator so she will continue to lay) and regardless of how many eggs are in the nest, the Hen will eventually go broody. So it seems like their body, or something in their little peabrain knows when they have laid enough eggs for a clutch and that is what triggers them to go broody. (JMO tho, not proven fact that I know of). If she's gone broody on just 2-3 eggs, I'd take the eggs away, break up the nest and keep an eye out for her next laying spot. Sometimes it's a couple days, but can take a week before my Hens will lay again. Oh and... if she finds another nest, (of someone else's eggs lol) she may go broody on THOSE instead of laying a new batch of her own, lol. So you may want to keep an eye on her for a week or so.

 

[southern oaks]

I never dreamed about incubating my guinea eggs. I was so hooked on my ornametal ducks and when they had problems due to a late move to the aviary. I started with the guineas. and ohhhhhhhhhhhh boy am I hooked on them now... I have a bator full and hoping to keep it up for a bit longer. I just love the assorted colors. teehee...

BTW: thanks for the advice on how to find the nests. I have been very successful at going out and quietly watching the males. They do indeed talk to the female when she is on the nest. And I have been able to find more nests.. gees I am going to have to change my numbers on guineas soon..

 

[rollyard]

Hi, a few points to consider for your keet "Teddy Bear" patterned keets;

1/ Is Pied gene involved? If you have normal wild-type (striped pattern) downed keets with same pied markings (gene) as in your "Teddy Bear" (TB) keets, & in same colours, what then has altered pattern?

2/ Could a specific/single gene for TB pattern itself not only remove striping, but also inhibit pigmentation in some locations on keet down (so some white areas similar to pied effect)? Hence thoughts re: Pied gene association?

3/ Because ? all keet down colours are affected including straight Pearl grey (no additional modifyers) & some with single mutation (eg Lavender dilution) involvement, does that not rule out colour gene interactions as the cause?

4/ Royal Purple (Violet) plumage phenotype is the result of one recessive mutation (pure form) which inhibits the white pearl marking expression. Birds therefore appear solid & therefore darker I suppose. The gene directly affects pattern (absense of spots) so could I guess also influence keet down pattern? But how does that explain birds that have TB keet pattern but aren't Royal Purple?

5/ Are any/many TB patterned keets hatched that have no pied markings, &/or are pied/white markings associated with TB downed keets transient, ie, lost in adult plumage?

Wild-type" is the original phenotype (colour/pattern/type) as found in the original wild organism, in this case, Pearl Grey Guineas & their striped down keets (as I understand). Any deviation away from these traits is the result of one or more mutations. To my way of thinking, all Guineas, regardless of colour/pattern are Pearl Grey, but modified Pearl Grey for those not phenotypically Pearl Grey! For example, Royal Purple Guineas are Pearl Grey Guineas with a recessive mutation "m" in pure form (m/m)which removes pearl markings.

Let us assume for example that TB pattern is the result of a discrete mutation (not acting in combination with other genes) & affects only keet down pattern. We don't know if it is on the Z chromosome (sex-linked) or not, or whether dominant or recessive to its wild-type alternative form. For now, will assume TB (Teddy Bear pattern) is recessive to its wild-type allele, so, tb = Teddy Bear pattern, & TB+ = its stripey patterned allele, & autosomal (not sex-linked). Remember, capital symbols are dominant or incompletely so, while lower case symbols are recessive, eg, TB+ (stripey down pattern) is dominant, maybe incompletely so, to tb (teddy bear down pattern). The + denotes wild-type, ie, not mutated form of the gene! We are going to add your tb keet pattern to the colour/pattern genotype below:-

m/M+ (where m = absence for pearling, & M+ = pearling)
l/L+ (where l = lavender, & L+ = not lavender)
d/D+ (where d = dun, & D+ = not dun)
W/w+ (where W = white, & w+ = not white)
tb/TB+ (where tb = Teddy Bear down pattern, & TB+ = stripey down pattern)

Now for an example; say we were to mate a wild-type Pearl Grey bird who was pure for striped down pattern (full colour pattern genotype = M+/M+, L+/L+, D+/D+, w+/w+, TB+/TB+) to a Pearl Grey who was pure for Teddy Bear pattern (full colour pattern genotype = M+/M+, L+/L+, D+/D+, w+/w+, tb/tb). All progeny produced will inherit one gene/allele from father & one from mother (assuming autosomal transmission). So progeny from this mating would be M+/M+, L+/L+, D+/D+, w+/w+, TB+/tb). Because TB+ (stripey down pattern) is dominant over its recessive allele tb (Teddy bear pattern), all keets should be stripey down Pearl Grey Keets, but they will carry hidden one dose of tb. If two of these siblings mated back together, then approx 25% of their progeny would be pure for tb (tb/tb) & express as Teddy Bear patterned down Pearl Grey keets.

Let us add colour this time, say Lavender to the mix. Lavender (l) is recessive to its not Lavender or wild-type allele (L+), & for this example both our breeding birds will be homozygous, or pure for it, ie, l/l. We will also have them each pure for tb (Teddy bear pattern), ie tb/tb. So both parents would be genetically M+/M+, l/l, D+/D+, w+/w+, tb/tb. All progeny produced would be like-wise M+/M+, l/l, D+/D+, w+/w+, tb/tb, ie, phenotypically Teddy Bear patterned Lavender coloured keets!

I am not saying that the above is how the birds are genetically because I don't know, but utilising above examples may help you to work out the colours of your keets through your own breeding experiences & knowledge base. If gene for Teddy Bear (or others) sex-linked, then outcomes could be different of course.

perchie.girl, I did read that link & found it very interesting. I am pretty sure that I have heard of something similar before; very interesting, & certainly food for thought

This link Here may also be helpful.

Cheers all

 

[perchie.girl]

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All I have to say about this Rollyard is

The link is a fabulous source. I am currently on the hunt for good resource books on the subject of guineas and am finding most main stream publications are mostly fluff with some good info added in for sure. I am adding it to my book marks in Google. So far I am only finding single papers done by naturalists which is fine but they usually deal with only one aspect.... A focus so to speak.... either in parasites or disease vectors. I am looking for a naturalists view and observations of Guineas in the wild.... so that I can adjust my own captive habitat to encourage wild behaviors.... I would love to get my hands on some wild caught or nearly wild Guineas to add to my flock for boosting the genetics....

 

[PeepsCA]

I think rollyard likes frying my brain cells

Thanks for the info, very in-depth and lots to think about... now I'll just keep reading it over and over and over until some of it sinks in, lol

How bout I just ship you a box of mixed TBs rollyard and you can figure this all out for us?

 

[southern oaks]

AMEN! I agree, especially since poor PeepsCA is beating her brains out..

 

[perchie.girl]

'S