Need to vent and possibly get suggestions

[BarbK]

Naps she has never really taken but has ALWAYS been made to lay down for even if she doesnt sleep.

Early bedtime we have gone as far as having her eat supper at 4 and bed at 5. Those nights (without the clonidine at 1/2 the .01mg where the dose started) she would eventually get to sleep around 1-2a.m. I also would have to go into her room and hold her down cause she didn't want to stay in her bed and would throw herself or hurt the animals.

Thirst is an issue not only at bed but any time of day. Tonight since she got home at 3 she drank 2 liters of water and she woke up a little bit ago asking for a drink. Yet the recent battery of tests says nothing is wrong.

Red dyes and sugar are not consumed because I noticed that red dye does seem to make her more hyper. Sugar is not allowed at all cause my family has both types 1 and 2 diabetes and I have mild sugar problems. The sperm doners family has multiple members insulin dependant.

 

[ruth]

My gosh Barb - I feel for you - sounds like you must BOTH be totally exhausted. If she's not napping and also not sleeping she must be delirious. I don't know what I would have done if my kids didn't nap or go to bed early and stay there all night (did I mention I had three under 3).

I did want to mention that rewarding good behavior is also as important as having consequences for bad behavior. For nights when she goes to bed nicely - make it a fun time for both of you - read, pray, play/talk quietly in bed, read story, add a little something extra. For nights when she throws a tantrum - take something away - "tomorrow night - no story because of your behavior tonight - I sure will miss story time, I love it so much....." and STICK TO IT.

They learn quickly about rewards and consequences. Pretty soon no more consequences, only rewards.

Mine loved eating out in nice restaurants and being on their best behavior because inevitably the waiter/waitress would bring them something special like a dessert or Shirley Temple and tell them they had never seen such well behaved kids. They learned to work the system.

 

[lexustami]

Barb,

You need to find out what is wrong with your daughter. Thirst and not sleeping are symptoms of a much bigger problem. If your primary doctor can't find out what is wrong with her then it is time to move on. Find another doctor. Get a second opinion.

Remember she is not doing this on purpose. There is something wrong with her body. If you need time away then try to get some time for yourself. Then come back and take care of your daughter.

You have to ask yourself if there were other symptoms would you feel this way? Yes, not sleeping and yelling/screaming can get on your nerves and stress you out. But if, for example, her symptoms were throwing up or some other thing that she couldn't control, would you still feel the same way?

This is your little girl. (I wouldn't give you this advice if I didn't think there was a bigger problem.) How does she act if you have her sleep with you? Of if you lay down with her in her bed? What happens if everyone goes to be early and all of the lights are off? Will she let herself out of her room and stay up all night?

It is easy to say spank her, make her stay in her room and ignore it but it takes a stronger person to see beyond the behavior and cuddle her in your arms and do whatever it takes to make her feel safe and comfortable so she can sleep.

AGAIN, I want to say I wouldn't say this if I just thought it was her not wanting to go to bed or a tantrum.

I hope both of you can find some peace soon. It is just as hard on her as it on you. It is harder for her to understand what is happening to her.

Take care,

Tami

 

[arwmommy]

My oldest spent most of his first year in a PICU (pediatric ICU) for severe complications after heart surgery and got addicted to a lot of drugs (he desperately needed them, but was still addicted).

One of them was Chloral Hydrate to sleep at night-- a very strong drug.

His neurologist told us there was some things we needed to consider once he was physically weaned off of the medication. (#'s 1 & 2 are from him, the rest are from me!)

1. She may be OVER tired. Does she nap? For how long? Does she get enough sleep at night? At this age it should be about 11 hours at night and a 1 hour nap (or 11.5-12 hours at night if no nap.)

2. This is the way you get a child back on a reasonable sleep schedule. It takes a week or so but REALLY WORKS!
Lets say your daughter is going to bed at 11pm every night and sleeping until 9 am.
Wake her up at 7:30 am until she starts going to sleep at 10 pm.
Then, Wake her up at 6 am until she starts going to bed at 9 pm
Then Wake her up at 5 am until she starts going to bed at 8 pm.
After that is consistent, stop waking her up, and let her get up on her own (probably like 6-6:30 am) while still going to bed at 8 pm.


3. Remember that she is still little, and she is not in control of herself right now. I totally get your frustration, trust me! (I flipped out yesterday after my 9 year old did this whiney-cry for hours-- he has a hard time calming down once he starts crying--- so I get it)

4. Be firm with her, but work out a plan TOGETHER! Make it seem like HER plan? "So, after you go to the potty and brush your teeth, then what?" Where does she WANT to sleep? My daughter (also 4) has been sleeping in a sherpa sleeping bag ON HER BED for 6 months because it is "cozy" and thats where she wants to sleep!

Sometimes she puts it on the floor and makes herself a little bed. Sometimes she goes to sleep in her chair in her room. I don't really care. She just needs to stay in her room--- at least at first. She still comes into our bed at about 2-4am every night. That is fine-- she is still little and is figuring it out. She spent the first 2 1/2 years co-sleeping and nursing, and is weaning herself out of our bed. There are times she goes a week without coming into bed with us at all. We know she is growing and still needs the comfort of mom and dad. (Some of my best memories are curling up with my Mom in her bed at night-- she was always warm and safe!)

5. If she won't stay in her room--- that is very challenging. We have tried different things-- putting up a baby gate, putting a doorknob lock thing on the inside of the door and shutting it (which she HATES), and what worked the most was making a stupid little sticker chart! She got a sticker for every night she stayed in bed and after a certain number (at first it was EVERY night she got a sticker, than every 3rd sticker, then every 7th, then 14th then nothing!) she got something small she really wanted. (For my daughter it was always Chap-Sticks!)

I have a friend whose kid was TOTALLY into money-- so they put 3 dimes on the kitchen counter--- everytime he got out of bed bugging them for a drink, potty, whining, etc, one of the dimes was taken. He got however many dimes were still there when he got up in the morning. (For getting up once, he got only 2 dimes--- if he stayed in bed the whole time, he got all 3)

6. Say prayers to try to figure out how do deal with THIS SPECIAL INDIVIDUAL CHILD. Heavenly Father knows her way better than even you do, and can guide you to deal with her personally. I have a very *fierce* daughter, and it has been a process for me (and still is!) to be able to deal with her--- she is just like me! GRRRR!




Best wishes, and keep us updated.

You are doing your best!

 

[barg]

I haven’t read all the posts but.....
I have a sleeping Disorder. I have had it all my life.
Have you taken your daughter to a sleep specialist?
If you haven’t, please do.

I'm not going to get into this to a great degree because I know all of the preconceptions that there are about How Sleep Works and I also know how difficult it is to get people to stop believing things that aren’t true about sleep.

I'm not a Doctor, nor do I have any idea if your daughter has a sleeping disorder, however, I have seen two separate specialists and both of them have told me that sleeping pills solve nothing.
When I explain to a general practitioner that I have a sleeping disorder and I tell them the name of it, they almost always have the same misconceptions about sleep as the general population.

If your daughter has a disorder caused by brain chemistry, there may not be a cure available for it, further, there may or may not be therapy for it. (PLEASE NOTE: When I say therapy, I do not mean psychological.
Psychologists are even worse. If it is a sleeping disorder they will try to Reason it away. They don't know anything about physiologcal sleeping disorders. Trust me on this.)

A specialist is your best chance for success.

GL

ADDED: If you want to discuss sleeping disorders further, let me know.
I can tell you what I know, but only a specialist can tell you why your daughter is the way she is.
If it is a psychological problem then a psychologist would be advisable, but I’d seek a sleep specialist first.
You can't change a physiological problem through psychology.

One more thing... No I don’t have Narcolepsy (there are allot of different sleeping disorders)

Can't help myself, I need to add this.
I hoe I havn't come off harshly, when I discuss this topic I am always a little on edge because I know what preconcieved ideas people bring to the table on the subject and how hard it is to overcome them.
Your problem may have nothing to do with what i'm talking about, but if it does, you won't solve it through pills or psychology, and to try will only make things worse for everyone involved.

 

[mamaboyd]

Could there be some kind of metabotical condition? My son has a rare metabolical disease that is classified under MPS disorders. I belong to a forum and there are parents that have children that have been in simililar situations, so perhaps your doctor could request more testing to be done genetically to see what could be causing the problem. So many diseases are difficult to confirm, but there is hope. I'm not saying your daughter has an MPS disease by any means, but this might help. If you would like to email me I'd be glad to help, or perhaps try to point you in the right direction. Many hugs to you!! It's not easy dealing with this( I have 5 kids so I've been there, done that!!) I feel for you and it's hard to be around a child when they get their parents so upset, it's nerve wrecking, and sometimes you just have to walk away for a few moments and collect your thoughts before you blow your top. I tend to step outside when all the screaming goes on, before I end up yelling more which doesn't help. I grew up with a spank on the bum by a wooden paddle or spoon, and I sure learned quick what was unapropriate behaviour. Sometimes children that have an underlying problem just don't understand that though, which makes everything so much more difficult.

 

[Bubba]

For the LOVE of GOD. Anyone who isn't an insomniac their whole life STFU! (Parents with special needs children are exempted from that statement.) I was forced to sleep (I learned to lay there with my eyes closed for hours if need be to fool people trying to HELP ME, then get up and go do what I wanted! I became self aware at the age of 2 and I remember stuff from when I was 1.

After the other post this is another bad one for me. Barb I need to ask you a few questions. I don't want to tell you what she is but I am almost certain she is headed that way. It would be nice to give someone a chance I wasn't given.



Ask her if she can't stop thinking at night. Like her brain keeps coming up with ideas.
Is she VERY Creative?
Is she already deceptive?
Does she like fire/ fireplace with logs burning? If you don't know start a wood fire have her look at it and ask her if it seems to be alive to her.
Is she very smart or bright/quick for her age?


Something that may work if you answer no to most of the questions above is...
You can try keeping her UP for a whole night a whole day then letting her crash at the proper bedtime the next night. It is the ONLY way I can reset my clock. It sucks, it's hard but it works if only temporarily. Anything that disrupts the cycle and you will have to start over again.

There are a few more questions I will ask privately, no reason to blab to the world and ruin her future. What some people view as a weakness/wrongness can be a huge strength if you channel it right and get her treatment.

Before you try all the other peoples suggestions please answer the questions I posted. I may be able to direct you to the right resources and help. Everyone here is assuming its a sleep issue. It's not if I have to guess from what you have already written, I just want to be darn sure before I breathe a word of it to you.

Whatever you do, DO NOT SLAP or SPANK HER! I will explain after I see your responses to the questions.

Bubba

 

[Do I look like a chicken]

Barb,

You have a very painful situation there and I'm no child therapist or anything like that, but after reading all of what you've said, I'm wondering if your daughter would benefit from you just laying down next to her for a few hours at bedtime each night, in her bed. Spend this time stroking her hair and rubbing her back, neck, face and head gently and lightly. Sing or hum quietly to her. Read a book together. Dim the room to almost dark.

My youngest son had some trouble going to sleep at night when he was around 4 years old too. Although he never threw a tantrum, he would cry from time to time about being sent to bed. We got into a routine of reading to him, singing, and doing the things I suggested above. He really enjoyed a good back tickle. After about 10 minutes of that, he'd be passed out for the night. You have to do it really lightly and make it feel like a feather. In fact, a feather might be a really good thing to use. Get a good, big, fluffy one.

If she wakes up and comes into your room at night, and wants to get into bed with you, let her. Make her feel comfortable and safe. She is reacting very poorly to something very specific and until you get that figured out, the best you can do is to be extra loving and caring and comforting to her.

So, rather than sending her to bed, take her to bed and start performing some ritual with her. I have no girls, but I know that all girls like pretty clothes and dressing up, even for bedtime. Get her some big fluffy pink slippers and several pairs of nice comfortable pjs. Play bedtime dress up. Once she gets dressed up in the pjs, take her into the kitchen for a bedtime snack, offer graham crackers and milk or whatever makes her happy and is somewhat healthy. Whatever she does, you do too, even if it gags you, try it. Spend some time being goofy together. I used to get in trouble with my bride because I'd have the boys yucking it up just before bedtime, but I think it helped get them relaxed and in a good mood.

It's all about focusing on her and trying a new approach to hopefully change her behavior. Perhaps you have tried these things and I know it's easy for me to sit here and say try this and try that, I'm not living your life. But, you sound like you are really getting stressed quite badly and something has to give. Whatever you do, stay calm.

Those are my thoughts and suggestions and I hope you can find something useful in them.

Hang in there Mom.

Mike

 

[barg]

Quote:
Confuseing, if i'm reading this correctly you are telling people who are not insomniacs to be quiet and then in the same post saying that it is not a sleep issue.

Insomnia is a sleeping Disorder.
It is, what I was accused of haveing all my life, but in fact is Not the sleeping disorder that I have; mine is quite different.

So I was just wondering If I am in the stfu category or not.

Further, there are several Child hood disorders that I could have easily been misdiagnosed with if I had been born a little later.

I'm sure there are lots of doctors who would have loved to have doped me up and said I had any one of the more popular childhood afflictions so commonly diagnosed these days.

Its amazing what symptoms you can have when you operate under lack of sleep.

I reassert my position and implore you to seek a sleep specialist. Sleep specialists that I have encounterd do not pump you full of medications to solve your problems and as such will only do good and not harm; And if you rule out sleeping disorder you can move to the next thing without having doped up your child to solve a problem they may not have.

 

[AccidentalFarm]

This may seem dense after all of the previous posts, but if you haven't tried, maybe some warm chamomile tea to drink in the late afternoon would help to calm her? Even if you just plant the 'seed' that it helps to relax the body and calm anxiety, she'd believe it and start getting geared-down mentally because she believes it works (even if it didn't really have that effect on her.)

She might like the idea, being 4 years old, that she's drinking 'sleepy tea' made from pretty flowers. You might could even plant some together in a small flower bed that she can help care for, so that she can see and feel the plant and relate it to the tea. Working a bit each day in the flower bed close to bedtime, having a bath, and then a cup of tea....sounds like a nice end of the day routine.

Either way, it's not harmful or habit forming. It'd probably do you some good, too. Maybe both of you could start having and 'unwind' cup of tea at a certain time each day and hopefully the routine will stick with her and trigger a 'relax-and-get-sleepy' response everyday.

The only other suggestion I have is to do something physically taxing close to bedtime. Maybe a sing and dance-along video or something of the sort? I think my daughter had one called 'Bella Bella Dancerella' or something similar.

I sure hope you find a solution. Thoughts and prayers going your way.

Hang in there!

Keep us posted.