new research debunks trad views on nutrition

[Rurumo]

A few pages back there was a good discussion about reusing litter and the immune benefits (or something) and I thought you guys might be interested in this study. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032579119306534 They looked at spraying bacillus probiotics on used poultry litter to see what happens to the microbial communities-their goal was to be able to re-use poultry litter rather than start fresh with each cycle.
I came across a probiotic litter spray on the Southland Organics site when I was looking at their probiotics and vitamins and was curious to see if there was any research backing it up, and so found that study. It seems probiotics sprayed in the litter have a lot of the same benefits as probiotics(or fermented feed) fed to the bird-mainly a reduction in ammonia and crowding out e-coli and others. It seems a lot of big poultry houses are experimenting with probiotics in the litter. This is the study on litter probiotics/ammonia https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1755-1315/399/1/012012.

 

[Perris]

A few pages back there was a good discussion about reusing litter and the immune benefits (or something) and I thought you guys might be interested in this study. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032579119306534 They looked at spraying bacillus probiotics on used poultry litter to see what happens to the microbial communities-their goal was to be able to re-use poultry litter rather than start fresh with each cycle.
I came across a probiotic litter spray on the Southland Organics site when I was looking at their probiotics and vitamins and was curious to see if there was any research backing it up, and so found that study. It seems probiotics sprayed in the litter have a lot of the same benefits as probiotics(or fermented feed) fed to the bird-mainly a reduction in ammonia and crowding out e-coli and others. It seems a lot of big poultry houses are experimenting with probiotics in the litter. This is the study on litter probiotics/ammonia https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1755-1315/399/1/012012.

the De Cesare paper is indeed interesting, in several ways. But it overlooks these important points.

1. re-using litter for multiple batches of meat chickens does save waste (and money) for the planet (and producer), but such a system requires the carcasses to be decontaminated by chlorine immersion or similar, the environmental and financial cost of which was not considered (and doesn't work very well either https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ils-bacteria-tests-brexit-salmonella-listeria) and

2. one of the key takeaways from Spector's book is that gut microbiomes vary hugely, even between identical twins. So treating the results from tests on a small number of individual chicks as representative of all the thousands that might live together in a shed is unreliable.

And personally, I would prefer it if the poultry industry didn't start using substances that are currently used to clean hospitals just to make their production processes easier and cheaper.

 

[NatJ]

1. re-using litter for multiple batches of meat chickens does save waste (and money) for the planet (and producer), but such a system requires the carcasses to be decontaminated by chlorine immersion or similar, the environmental and financial cost of which was not considered (and doesn't work very well either https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ils-bacteria-tests-brexit-salmonella-listeria)

Would the carcasses be clean enough if they used fresh litter for each batch? I would expect 2 months of broiler poop would make them pretty filthy anyway. In the article you linked, it blamed crowded conditions for the germy chickens. I know that past a certain density, no amount of fresh litter is going to keep them clean.

Quote of relevant paragraph from the article:
"Apart from a few voluntary codes, the American poultry industry is unregulated compared with that in the EU, allowing for flocks to be kept in far greater densities and leading to a much higher incidence of infection. While chicken farmers in the EU manage contamination through higher welfare standards, smaller flock densities and inoculation, chlorine washing is routinely used in the US right at the end of the process, after slaughter, to clean carcasses. This latest study indicates it simply doesn’t work."

 

[Perris]

Would the carcasses be clean enough if they used fresh litter for each batch?

I doubt it. The bit of the article you quote includes the other measures needed:

higher welfare standards, smaller flock densities and inoculation

 

[NatJ]

I doubt it. The bit of the article you quote includes the other measures needed:

So I don't think fresh litter instead of re-used litter would make any difference, unless they improved those other points as well.

Depending on what bacterial population ended up living in it, the reused litter could be worse (more bacteria that cause trouble) or better (other bacteria out-competing the troublesome ones.) That's what was being mentioned a few posts ago-- investigating the effects, especially whether probiotics change it, to see whether reused litter can be as good as fresh litter. If I'm reading it correctly, the re-used litter was sometimes better (meaning, smaller numbers of the bacteria they considered bad.)

The study I was just reading is this one:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032579119306534
(It was linked before by @Rurumo )

 

[Perris]

So I don't think fresh litter instead of re-used litter would make any difference, unless they improved those other points as well.

Depending on what bacterial population ended up living in it, the reused litter could be worse (more bacteria that cause trouble) or better (other bacteria out-competing the troublesome ones.) That's what was being mentioned a few posts ago-- investigating the effects, especially whether probiotics change it, to see whether reused litter can be as good as fresh litter. If I'm reading it correctly, the re-used litter was sometimes better (meaning, smaller numbers of the bacteria they considered bad.)

The study I was just reading is this one:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032579119306534
(It was linked before by @Rurumo )

that's the same paper, by De Cesare et.al. And that's what my comments about omitting to consider and cost the expense of decontaminating the carcasses, and the unreliability of generalising from a few cases because individual animals' microbiomes vary a lot, were about.

 

[Geena]

And personally, I would prefer it if the poultry industry didn't start using substances that are currently used to clean hospitals just to make their production processes easier and cheaper.

Many fruits, greens and vegetables you buy at the store are washed with a chlorine rinse as well, even organic produce.

 

[Perris]

Many fruits, greens and vegetables you buy at the store are washed with a chlorine rinse as well, even organic produce.

Actually, I get my veg in a box and it's grown in a field 2 miles away. We're lucky if it's washed with water before it goes in the box

 

[Geena]

Actually, I get my veg in a box and it's grown in a field 2 miles away. We're lucky if it's washed with water before it goes in the box

I get mine out of my backyard

 

[3KillerBs]

Many fruits, greens and vegetables you buy at the store are washed with a chlorine rinse as well, even organic produce.

An easy, inexpensive solution to the problem of contamination in shipped produce.

Actually, I get my veg in a box and it's grown in a field 2 miles away. We're lucky if it's washed with water before it goes in the box

That's a blessing for people who have it available and affordable.

I looked into the both "local" boxes and the "misfits" boxes and the price came up to about 3-5 times what I'd pay in the grocery store with no guarantee that there would be enough of any given item to make a meal for a family of 4 in a single box.

But I have a childless friend in a high cost of living urban area who finds those boxes both appropriate for a household of 2 and a savings vs the inflated local prices.

I get mine out of my backyard

An even greater blessing.

I miss having good land for gardening. In other areas I was able to never buy veggies all summer.