Niacin supplements?

[Speceider]

I feed game bird feed and supplement duckling with poultry vitamins in the water....every 3 days for the first 42 days (most species I keep fledge by 42 days). After that, I add weekly.

Clint

 

[chooks4life]

I feed game bird feed and supplement duckling with poultry vitamins in the water....every 3 days for the first 42 days (most species I keep fledge by 42 days). After that, I add weekly.

Clint

Thanks for the info. It seems quite a few people feed game bird feed and supplementary vitamins in the water. Might have to look into what they're putting into game bird feed and at what ratio and in what forms. Normal chook food is obviously failing a lot of people despite claiming it's a complete feed.

Best wishes.

 

[Speceider]

To me, most chicken feeds are too low in protein, and I also keep quail, so higher protein is necessary. I am not a huge believer that higher protein causes angel wing, so that doesn't deter me from using higher protein. The NRC guidelines for game birds matches the guidelines for ducks much better than the chicken guidelines. Because feeds are generally developed using log-linear, least cost programming, when chicken requirements are entered, that's what you'll get with little overage.

I doubt that the diet composition has changed from soil depletion. The ingredients and the feeds are regularly analyzed. Depletion would result in more being added to maintain the certified composition.

Clint

 

[chooks4life]

To me, most chicken feeds are too low in protein, and I also keep quail, so higher protein is necessary. I am not a huge believer that higher protein causes angel wing, so that doesn't deter me from using higher protein. The NRC guidelines for game birds matches the guidelines for ducks much better than the chicken guidelines. Because feeds are generally developed using log-linear, least cost programming, when chicken requirements are entered, that's what you'll get with little overage.

I doubt that the diet composition has changed from soil depletion. The ingredients and the feeds are regularly analyzed. Depletion would result in more being added to maintain the certified composition.

For decades now there has been verified research from the CSIRO etc showing that some artificial fertilizers cause up to 100% inhibition of uptake of nutrients like copper, sulfur etc in the animals. The feed may test as having normal levels of nutrients but the animals are simply not getting it.
In Australia poor soils are an unremitting reality, the nutrient levels fluctuate wildly but being inadequate is the general rule of thumb; I don't know what's going on in America or the UK with regards to soil and nutrient testing, but soil mismanagement is a known problem in those countries too, and the effect isn't as simple as 'less nutrition' outright --- it's there, but it's locked up and the animals can't access it.

 

[Speceider]

The problem with your last part is that they test for the biologically active forms, so it wouldn't mean that they are able to use less.

I wonder about other chemicals ( like EDCs) that affect nutrient absorption and utilization, and the effects of artificial selection....both for increased production and the opposite of not culling defective birds.

Clint

 

[Amiga]

To me, most chicken feeds are too low in protein, and I also keep quail, so higher protein is necessary. I am not a huge believer that higher protein causes angel wing, so that doesn't deter me from using higher protein. The NRC guidelines for game birds matches the guidelines for ducks much better than the chicken guidelines. Because feeds are generally developed using log-linear, least cost programming, when chicken requirements are entered, that's what you'll get with little overage.

I doubt that the diet composition has changed from soil depletion. The ingredients and the feeds are regularly analyzed. Depletion would result in more being added to maintain the certified composition.

Clint

You are tracking along my lines of thought, and I appreciate your insights and answers. Thanks again.

 

[Amiga]

The problem with your last part is that they test for the biologically active forms, so it wouldn't mean that they are able to use less.

I wonder about other chemicals ( like EDCs) that affect nutrient absorption and utilization, and the effects of artificial selection....both for increased production and the opposite of not culling defective birds.

Clint

Those endocrine disrupters are all over the place, I have read. And I am catching on - or at least, it seems to me - that many of those of us who study the life sciences may have been missing the significance of hormones. I have known they are important, but perhaps had not appreciated just how important, and just how affected by outside influences, such as EDCs, they are.

And with the interest in backyard waterfowl, it would parallel what happens as dog breeds become more popular, mightn't it?

 

[Speceider]

Not only are EDCs known, but there are also chemicals that affect neurotransmitters, so I would guess there are few biological systems that are not affected. But, remember EDCs are not all "manufactured" chemicals, there are thousands of phytoestrogens that have been around for thousands, if not millions of years that the plants use for defense.

Yeah, I wonder if all the niacin supplementation is selecting for higher requirements.

Clint

 

[chooks4life]

The problem with your last part is that they test for the biologically active forms, so it wouldn't mean that they are able to use less.

This is a long-documented problem with other animals like sheep and cattle, I would expect it is also a problem in poultry though it's not receiving the same attention. The pasture and grains being fed are still showing results under testing as being of such and such a nutritional value but the uptake of the nutrition in the animals is partially or totally inhibited.

I wonder about other chemicals ( like EDCs) that affect nutrient absorption and utilization, and the effects of artificial selection....both for increased production and the opposite of not culling defective birds.

Yeah, it's all a 'galloping snowball' of problems, lol.

I personally think there is too much coddling of immune systems in many flocks by using powerful drugs to defeat even common and easily overcome diseases like the equivalent of the common cold (yes, I do know it's fatal to some, that's not the point), instead of supporting the immune system via a pretty natural diet and letting it either succeed or fail according to the individual's strength or lack thereof.
That said I'm not condemning anyone who goes the extra mile to ensure survival, every method has its place and use. I'm interested in developing a flock that can cope with any disease they're likely to encounter.

 

[Speceider]

Sorry you lose me quickly when you start comparing ruminent nutrition with poultry. Comparing horses with hoatzins.... both post-gastric fertmenters and I might listen. You mention ruminents (I really do not pay much attention to ruminent nutrition), but MOST of rumeninent nutrition really is the nutrition of the bacteria in the rumen.....has that changed....I would have NO problem believing that. Has how Mg metabolism changed in chickens (a mono gastric), I have serious doubts. I believe the basic biochemical reactions have not changed so if the ingest sulfate....it will react as sulfate.....

Clint