not all birds are created equal

[CelticOaksFarm]

VIGOR

FERTILITY

VIABILITY

not sure why y'all cant read those key point as they are very strong reasons and points that shouldbe used when breeding.

HOWEVER dont breed two pet quality birds and call them a bird X and ask a high dollar it is not fair to the breed to muddy the gene pool in such a way.

I sure never said you should brred only to the SOP and worry about nothing else, but again some cant seem to read that.

AGAIN people who take two birds who genetic messes (screwed up bills, wings, legs, hips what ever) and breed them because they are both breed Y are not helping the breed in the least, they are producing inferior birds.

You have to have the WHOLE picture in mind when selecting stock or dont bother. Too many puppymill types for my liking and when you point this out feelings get hurt.

not everyone is a winner...............not every animal should be bred

 

[gritsar]

Said it before and I'll say it again. I OWN my birds, I PAY for their feed, I SPEND hours a day caring for my birds. Most of my birds live their entire lives on this farm, a good life I might add, and there's only three ways any of them leave this farm - by passing of natural causes, being humanely put down to end their suffering, or if I give them to a friend that I am 100% certain is going to provide them with the same excellent care and love they have known their entire life.
Having said that, if I want to breed my serama rooster to my 5 year old LF brahma hen I will; assuming I can find him a tiny stepladder. I'm not asking anyone to buy them, take care of them, or even accept them. Every single one of my chickens, geese, ducks, dogs and cats has a name; not a number. They are not profit-makers to me, they are living beings that bring me much joy. And if and when my *gasp* hatchery quality goose goes broody in the spring you can bet your sweet patootey I will have goslings running around, receiving the same love and good husbandry their parents have since the day I opened that shipping box and saw their beautiful faces.
I first joined BYC 5 years ago to enjoy talking, sharing and learning about BACKYARD chickens with like-minded folks. When I want to know about the commercial aspect of poultry I'll talk to my neighbor. He's a commercial chicken farmer whom to this day still scratches his head trying to figure out how it is my birds thrive without the use of chemicals, immunizations, unnatural feed supplements, or unnecessary culling.

 

[duckluck]

Yes, and many breeders will openly admit that *if* asked. The devil is in the details. The stupidest question is the one that goes unasked. "Don't ask, don't tell", as they say. They will sometimes if asked tell you that their "best" birds are ones who lay very little or not at all in most cases, and that their tiny drakes can't breed. They might even point out bird X or Y who can or should win in a show but has dim prospects of breedability due to size, legs that are too short to allow for a cover or other problems.

As for the SOP, in my opinion it needs to be held to a better standard of perfection itself before I'm going to buy another one. Many people have complained about the illustrations and descriptions, and if I'm going to shell out that kind of money for an updated copy when I only breed one breed of poultry, it's going to have to have more of a "standard of perfection" as a publication. I did not purchase the newest edition because frankly, after looking over a copy a friend at a show bought, I didn't see enough to move me into shelling out more cash. My current copy left me underwhelmed. 30 year old artist's depicitions versus pictures of REAL birds that are as close to the standard as one can get? Puhleeze. I personally feel that an organization that has been around for over 100 years can do better. We all know the perfect bird has not yet been bred anyway, so why we are even going by an artist's depiction that is supposed to show "perfect" is quite beyond me.

I have heard that there is some work being done to add good quality pictures, but I *think* it's for the ABA standard, don't know what's in the works for the APA SOP.

I am curious, Celtic, why female culls are sold if they are indeed culls? Is this another case, as I often see on the sales floor, of the buyer having to take the breeder's word for it that they are worth breeding because they have good genetics behind them but that that simply can't cut the mustard on the show aisle, and they're going to have to buy them first if they are going to find out? Or the other scenario, in which case "they are the best to be found, and so-and-so has to start somewhere", in which case the SOP is going to take the back seat again anyway?

Don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer that everyone has to start somewhere, that it's a person's right to spend their money on whatever they like, and I myself have found treasures in what other people proclaim to be trash. But I also see a lot of "diamonds in the rough" sold that are never going to polish out one way or another. So I'm a bit curious about the selling of culls as breeders that are actually being called culls.

 

[duckluck]

Said it before and I'll say it again. I OWN my birds, I PAY for their feed, I SPEND hours a day caring for my birds. Most of my birds live their entire lives on this farm, a good life I might add, and there's only three ways any of them leave this farm - by passing of natural causes, being humanely put down to end their suffering, or if I give them to a friend that I am 100% certain is going to provide them with the same excellent care and love they have known their entire life.
Having said that, if I want to breed my serama rooster to my 5 year old LF brahma hen I will; assuming I can find him a tiny stepladder. I'm not asking anyone to buy them, take care of them, or even accept them. Every single one of my chickens, geese, ducks, dogs and cats has a name; not a number. They are not profit-makers to me, they are living beings that bring me much joy. And if and when my *gasp* hatchery quality goose goes broody in the spring you can bet your sweet patootey I will have goslings running around, receiving the same love and good husbandry their parents have since the day I opened that shipping box and saw their beautiful faces.
I first joined BYC 5 years ago to enjoy talking, sharing and learning about BACKYARD chickens with like-minded folks. When I want to know about the commercial aspect of poultry I'll talk to my neighbor. He's a commercial chicken farmer whom to this day still scratches his head trying to figure out how it is my birds thrive without the use of chemicals, immunizations, unnatural feed supplements, or unnecessary culling.

Amen to that. I sit on a somewhat different spot in the poultry world but I can appreciate what you say. I have bought the best I can...notice that I have said that "I can" and not "that I can afford" (*cough cough* bit of a story there)...and everything I sell is out of my own stock. I don't buy anything to "bird jockey". However...I also value many of my birds as personal pets too, and do everything I can to be sure they are treated humanely and find good homes when and if I decide to sell them. There have been times when I have seen birds that I was not happy with the way they were being treated and either bought them to bring them into condition for re-homing or helped find someone else to buy them. This is not a money-making enterprise for me; it loses more money than it gains. I like to think of it though as a hobby that sometimes helps to sustain itself, which my horse hobby definitely does not and cannot. It is not the black-hole of a money pit that running a horse operation is, and my Calls have tickled a spot for "cute" that I never knew I had. I am not a "fuzzy bunnies and cuddly teddy bears" kind of person, but these little guys have quacked their way into my "good books" anyhow. So I lurk somewhere in the nether between backyard keeper and hardboot poultryman.

 

[duckluck]

Celtic I respect you and Christine both enormously but I admit I did interpret the tone of the original post and the intended direction of the thread just as she did - as a bit of a fiat. I've no intention of being deliberately obtuse or spoiling for a fight - just thinking the conversation you wanted to have was a different one from the one you DO want to have.


That said....

Breeding for the standard is obviously a goal but it is not a perfect system - it can, over time, make the breed unrecognizable. In the cat fancy it turned this into this.

The bull terrier between 1930-1980 changed dramatically as each generation tried to interpret the standard to a more extreme degree than the last. And breeders had little choice if they wanted dogs who could compete - that's what judges were, and are, placing. See the skull comparison as they changed through the years:

These are two diverse examples but they've got breeding-for-type in common. There's a reason why some dog breeders resist tooth and nail getting AKC recognition of their dog breed. So, from those and other examples of pretty but decreasingly-functional animals, I maybe take breeding for exhibition as not the entirety of the goal. Functionality, laying ability, broodiness etc. are important aspects of a fowl breed, but I don't recall seeing ribbons awarded for those, so I can see them falling by the wayside in the pursuit of a stunning bird that will turn a judge's head. Sometimes IMO it's worth keeping an ugly bird in the flock if she brings non-visible traits you want to keep intact. I'm concerned with throwing traits like that away, in pursuit of appearance. That's not to say exclude appearance - just maybe take longer to get there for the sake of a sort of whole-bird view. IMO breed to function, your wisdom, and your conscience too. It's a balancing act and it demands a clear eye for what you've got and where you want to take it.

Let us not forget the dish-faced, barely ridable mutants the Arabian horse industry keeps hawking as exemplary members of the breed. I am sure millenia of desert nomads are rolling in their graves. Then we have the "feed 'em and lead 'em" miniature horses, many of whom are so distorted in their faces and hooves that they wind up having trouble chewing properly or walking...some of this by breeding, some of it from improper upkeep on the minis. Just plain bad breeding on the Arabians.

LOVE that "applehead", by the way...to me, THAT'S the Siamese I want! I've had one, and so has my husband, would have another for sure!

 

[myfinefeatheredfriends]

Many hatcheries are guilty of this. Surprised they're not shut down for fraud. They charge the same price whether the bird is SQ or not. I have a few personal rescues that I have never bred but can't part with so they are pets. As for my breeders, I don't have a lot of birds at all, just a select few quality specimens. Quality, not quantity.

 

[Senna95]

I agree that not every bird should be bred, but I also don't agree that everyone should breed strictly toward the SOP, nor that those that don't (breed toward the SOP) shouldn't sell their birds.

I have Indian runners, and some of mine are SO upright that they have leg problems. I mixed a few last year with some "back-yard" runners (much less upright), and all their offspring were much stronger and more stable on their legs, though not quite as upright. A very good trade-off in my opinion, but they'll never win at any shows.

And thank God that there were some "back-yard breeders" of German Shepherd dogs, or all we would have left are those poor show-dogs that have their hips so close to the ground that their backs look like kiddie slides at a play-ground. Or bull dogs that can't run because they can't breath, or dalmations that go deaf, or many of the other genetic defects and problems caused by our vein attempts to create the "perfet dog".

Now, before you get all agitated, I know (OP) that you said to breed for ALL qualities, including health and vigor. But sometimes, in order to do that we need to bring in some new blood, and often that is found on the outside: some little farm or back-yard breeder.

I sell my birds and my eggs, so I understand your frustration at competing with some of the folks that sell "fertile hatching eggs" from the 3 runner ducks they bought at the feed-store last year. There was a local lady last year that sold ducklings for $1 each just because she thought they were "fun to hatch". There was another guy 2 years ago that flooded our local market with so many ducklings that he ended up having to give them away. Neither one still hatches or sells ducklings, but I'm sure that this spring someone else will pop up. Someone always does. But I will still be here too, giving tours to the families with little kids, answering endless questions from 4-H kids and first-time duck owners, and playing around with my hobby of duck color genetics.............

Oh, anyway, it's late and now I'm rambling. Just my 2 cent's worth.

 

[CelticOaksFarm]

I agree that not every bird should be bred, but I also don't agree that everyone should breed strictly toward the SOP, nor that those that don't (breed toward the SOP) shouldn't sell their birds.

I have Indian runners, and some of mine are SO upright that they have leg problems. I mixed a few last year with some "back-yard" runners (much less upright), and all their offspring were much stronger and more stable on their legs, though not quite as upright. A very good trade-off in my opinion, but they'll never win at any shows.

And thank God that there were some "back-yard breeders" of German Shepherd dogs, or all we would have left are those poor show-dogs that have their hips so close to the ground that their backs look like kiddie slides at a play-ground. Or bull dogs that can't run because they can't breath, or dalmations that go deaf, or many of the other genetic defects and problems caused by our vein attempts to create the "perfet dog".

Now, before you get all agitated, I know (OP) that you said to breed for ALL qualities, including health and vigor. But sometimes, in order to do that we need to bring in some new blood, and often that is found on the outside: some little farm or back-yard breeder.

I sell my birds and my eggs, so I understand your frustration at competing with some of the folks that sell "fertile hatching eggs" from the 3 runner ducks they bought at the feed-store last year. There was a local lady last year that sold ducklings for $1 each just because she thought they were "fun to hatch". There was another guy 2 years ago that flooded our local market with so many ducklings that he ended up having to give them away. Neither one still hatches or sells ducklings, but I'm sure that this spring someone else will pop up. Someone always does. But I will still be here too, giving tours to the families with little kids, answering endless questions from 4-H kids and first-time duck owners, and playing around with my hobby of duck color genetics.............

Oh, anyway, it's late and now I'm rambling. Just my 2 cent's worth.

The small backyard mixed bird breeder doesnt bother AT ALL. It is when the same person takes said mixes and markets them as Breed X, Y or Z. That is what bothers me. Dont buy a mixed flock and then sell hatching eggs or hatchlings as anything but a mix. it would be like someone taking a mutt dog who has 1/8th german shepherd in them, breeding to another mutt from a GS mother/Lab dad and calling the pups GS pure bred.

The backyard breeder who wants to play with mixing their birds into what ever cross breed doesnt bother me, just again DONT try and market them as a pure bred animal.

Many hatcheries are guilty of this. Surprised they're not shut down for fraud. They charge the same price whether the bird is SQ or not. I have a few personal rescues that I have never bred but can't part with so they are pets. As for my breeders, I don't have a lot of birds at all, just a select few quality specimens. Quality, not quantity.

UUmm no, Holderreads is one of the few if not only who labels hatchlings BQ, SQ. You wont find Metzers or any of the other super large hatcheries selling anything labeled as such. They sell ............Duck breed X, and Chicken Breed A with no additional labels.




-----------------

CULLING............does not ever mean the birds are put down......it means removing from the breeding program. Selling a bird male or female (we sell both as culls) as pets is not a bad thing. Culling simply means removable from a breeding program. Our son culled his BC Marans flock to 1 rooster 3 hens the others were sold as pets/egg layers (hens) the rooster were processed.

No one ever said backyard breeding of mixed flocks was bad.................but dont list them as pure bred anything and exspect a ton of money for them as some have done and continue to do. The same goes for birds who are genetic walking disasters, dont breed two birds with hip, leg, head, wing, bill issues and think it is OK.

We have a Sebbie gander who is going to be going to the freezer, he isnt worth breeding, ganders are a dime a dozen for mixed flocks, he does however have a great depth of body, so butchering it will be. We have Toulouse who have been and will be processed as well for the same reasons or because that was the planned purpose for them since we hatched them in the spring.
-----------------------

Mixing breeds for personal use.........DO IT, but dont sell them as anything else but mixed breeds. DO It if it makes you smile, doesnt bother me one bit. Dont do it and then sell the off spring as pure anything.

We have a customer who recently bought what she was told was a Sebastopol "who just needs to grow more before the feathers will appear" and paid hundreds based on this persons "word" They have a white bird, with smooth feathers all over who appears to be at least a year if not 2. This is the type of breeding/selling that I am referring to.

------------------------------

The SOP isnt an end all be all.......but it is a STARTING place.............but again vigor, fertility, strong healthy stock is also something that needs to be in a breeding program.

Call ducks have fertility issues......so do some lines of Sebastopols, some lines have ganders with bad performance. Sometimes we have to use scissors to give "hair cuts" to their back sides for breeding season. Those fluffy beautiful feathers we crave create breeding nightmares at times. LoL We trimmed a gander and 2 geese yesterday. the feathers grow back again, but to give good access for breeding they need some trimming up.

----------------------

anyone who wants to imply those who pay for a membership arent held to same rules are just being pety and trying to start a fight. end of discussion on that one.

we have a paid membership because if we want to link to our Farms website we have to have this membership. thats the RULE, so we follow it and pay yearly for that feature as well the other benefits that come with it.

----------------------

Do we mix breed any of our birds? YOU BETCHA....our Easter Egger flock is EE and AM mixed together. You wont catch us listing them as ANYTHING but EE's (unlike many hatcheries and some farms too). Why do we mix the AM into the EE? For the blue egg gene, but our EE flock is a multi colored feather flock who lay mainly blue eggs. Most of the new off spring are larger than previous birds, which was another goal for the flock. So NO mixing breeds isnt bad, but DONT market them as anything other than a mix.

 

[StevenW.]

Many hatcheries are guilty of this. Surprised they're not shut down for fraud. They charge the same price whether the bird is SQ or not. I have a few personal rescues that I have never bred but can't part with so they are pets. As for my breeders, I don't have a lot of birds at all, just a select few quality specimens. Quality, not quantity.

Because there are no Bird Police out there. ;o)

 

[my sunwolf]

...

Do we mix breed any of our birds? YOU BETCHA....our Easter Egger flock is EE and AM mixed together. You wont catch us listing them as ANYTHING but EE's (unlike many hatcheries and some farms too). Why do we mix the AM into the EE? For the blue egg gene, but our EE flock is a multi colored feather flock who lay mainly blue eggs. Most of the new off spring are larger than previous birds, which was another goal for the flock. So NO mixing breeds isnt bad, but DONT market them as anything other than a mix.

Okay, needed to add that it is very heartening to hear this.

I assume that with your original argument hatchery EE's mixed with other hatchery EE's, even with proper culling, will continue to produce skinny, poor green egg layers with flighty and sometimes aggressive temperaments (bad traits I've noticed about my EE's).

However, when you mixed large-bodied, good blue egg laying, calm and sweet Ameraucanas into your flock of EE's, and then culled correctly, your particular flock got a boost. Is this true? Can this still be attributed to hybrid vigor, even though the EE's are mutts to begin with? Or does hybrid vigor happen every time you introduce new, unrelated blood into a flock?