Nutrition and gender, and inducing broodiness

[lazy gardener]

My most recent hatch appears to be supporting previous results. I set 8 eggs under a broody (first time Mama). She ate one clear. One died due to bacterial contamination, leaving 6 eggs to continue on to hatch. She was off the eggs several times up to 2 - 3 hours at a time, most often not more than 1/2 hour. Eggs hatched one day early. So, I'm assuming that Jack is the father of all of these chicks (and not one of his sons, (which might skew the color of chicks somewhat). IF feathering and leg color follow the same pattern of the previous 2 hatches, I have 5 females and 1 male. 2 Black sex link females for sure, 2 chipmunk patterned chicks with green legs, 1 chick that bears the markings of a Silver Laced Wyandotte chick, but has green legs, and 1 yellow chick (which I presume to be male based solely on leg color) with faint chipmunk striping and yellow legs. Time will tell if the leg color continues to be an accurate gender indicator, as it was with the previous 2 hatches.

 

[lazy gardener]

It's a bit early to tell, but... I think the results are in on my most recent hatch. Broody hatched 6 chicks. If comb development is an accurate indicator at 4 weeks, I have 4 pullets, and 2 cockrels. 67% pullets. This, again is far better than my previous hatches which were 40% pullets.

 

[scottcaddy]

Saying HI! and marking my spot.
Scott

 

[lazy gardener]

Hey Scott! How's it going. I don't have anything new to add. But my little cockrels from my broody hatch are a sketch. One is such a little man. He thinks he's all that and then some. When I try to pick up his Mama, or try to direct the chicks into their cat carrier, he pecks me! I am hoping that folks will feel free to add to this thread with: current gender ratios compared to ratios with shape selected eggs. It would be interesting to see if other folks have similar results. I really have to say that the idea of egg shape being an indicator of chick gender sounds like hocus pocus and superstition. But, I can't argue with an increase of pullet ratio from 40% to 67% with this method. If this hocus pocus continues to produce these results for me, I'll continue with it.

 

[mirandaleecon]

FINAL RESULTS ARE IN!!! My gender selection experiment was a success. Per initial post, eggs were selected according to shape, with the eggs having the most rounded profile when comparing length to width. 19 chicks were hatched. Of those eggs that hatched, there were 7 males and 12 females. Resulting in 37 % male, 63% female. My typical hatch is at least 60% male to 40% or less female.

Of further interest is that 6 of those males were sex links (EE x Dominique). Those eggs were NOT selected according to shape, as they were destined to be my control group in this hatch. However, in the excitement of the hatch, I failed to make note of which of those control eggs had the "male" profile, and which had the "female" profile. There were 6 males, and 6 females in the EE x Dom group, giving a 50/50 ratio.

So, taking the EE x Doms out of the picture, the other chicks produced a ratio of 6 females to 1 males.

Factors that may have had an effect on these results: My hens may have been throwing more "female" eggs at the time. I had a few eggs that didn't hatch. They may have carried male chicks. They were on a high protein feed and that feed was fermented. Could it be that, just as in a year when food is abundant, animals have larger litters/broods, a higher protein diet would favor production of more female offspring?

Given the results of this experiment, it bears repetition. I may do a repeat on this experiment later in the summer/early fall. I'd urge others who are incubating, and who have an abundance of eggs available to duplicate the experiment to see if they have similar results.

ETA correction on Dom male numbers, and addition of stats.

I just had to comment because it sounds like your hatch went down almost exactly like my last one! The only difference is we had humidity issues because we were trying to use a couple broody hens who I didn't realize were allowing (now I know to check) all the other hens to lay in their nest. So once we got them a few chicks, the rest went in the incubator and we had a very staggered hatch. Well in all we incubated 30+ eggs, many died late or just at hatch but we ended up with 19 chicks, 12 pullets and 7 cockerels.
I have heard that temperature will affect whether or not you get male or females. This seems a bit of a stretch to me but I'm wondering if the females are more resilient to temperature/humidity fluctuations while in the egg and that's why more of the survivors turned out to be female. Just a thought for future experiments...

 

[lazy gardener]

Hi Miranda. Yes, at least temp will affect outcome. I'm not sure exactly which way it goes, but one gender is favored by a bit of a difference in temp. The gender of the egg is actually determined by the hen, which as you know is different with mammals, being determined by the male. That's what makes this study even more interesting. B/C the gender is set so to speak before the egg even gets fertilized. There may be so many things that affect gender in poultry that we are yet not aware of, for example: nutrition, temperature trends, frequency of breeding, even flock dynamics. If the gender chromosome also dictates egg shape, one is led to wonder, WHY? Often, the larger chicks end up being male. Again, Why? And can we use any of this info to tweak our pullet percentages? Given the temp affecting mortality of male chicks, we are left with the discussion of how to rationalize the fact that a near perfect hatch, with eggs chosen by shape is still heavily weighted towards pullets. If the increase of pullets was only because of male mortality based on temp, there would be more eggs culled. I wonder if they would likely all die around the same time in the event of a temp spike.

 

[scottcaddy]

Hi Miranda. Yes, at least temp will affect outcome. I'm not sure exactly which way it goes, but one gender is favored by a bit of a difference in temp. The gender of the egg is actually determined by the hen, which as you know is different with mammals, being determined by the male. That's what makes this study even more interesting. B/C the gender is set so to speak before the egg even gets fertilized. There may be so many things that affect gender in poultry that we are yet not aware of, for example: nutrition, temperature trends, frequency of breeding, even flock dynamics. If the gender chromosome also dictates egg shape, one is led to wonder, WHY? Often, the larger chicks end up being male. Again, Why? And can we use any of this info to tweak our pullet percentages? Given the temp affecting mortality of male chicks, we are left with the discussion of how to rationalize the fact that a near perfect hatch, with eggs chosen by shape is still heavily weighted towards pullets. If the increase of pullets was only because of male mortality based on temp, there would be more eggs culled. I wonder if they would likely all die around the same time in the event of a temp spike.

And This is why I chose this thread to follow, I have alot to learn about the sex of eggs.
Thanks Much!!
Scott

 

[AmyLynn2374]

If it works for you, that's great. I'm merely passing along the info I've gleaned from all of my reading. So, yet an other reader who kicks the goads! Continue to do what makes sense to you instead of doing the status quo because someone once said that's the way it should be done. IMO, that's what makes any hobby so much fun. You get to learn a lot, but in the end, it boils down to doing what makes the most sense to you. You own the entire project! I read an other study that might interest you: This study involved collecting eggs for hatch, and storing them upside down. (Pointy end up) The eggs were not turned at all during pre-incubation storage. Hatch rate was comparable to that of eggs that were treated in the normal rate. (stored at ideal temp, and turned 3x/d) The theory was that in the upside down position, the chalazae stabilized the yolk in the middle to keep it from drifting towards the shell.

I read this a while back and thought that it was rather interesting. About egg position during incubation. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21934018

Hi Miranda. Yes, at least temp will affect outcome. I'm not sure exactly which way it goes, but one gender is favored by a bit of a difference in temp. The gender of the egg is actually determined by the hen, which as you know is different with mammals, being determined by the male. That's what makes this study even more interesting. B/C the gender is set so to speak before the egg even gets fertilized. There may be so many things that affect gender in poultry that we are yet not aware of, for example: nutrition, temperature trends, frequency of breeding, even flock dynamics. If the gender chromosome also dictates egg shape, one is led to wonder, WHY? Often, the larger chicks end up being male. Again, Why? And can we use any of this info to tweak our pullet percentages? Given the temp affecting mortality of male chicks, we are left with the discussion of how to rationalize the fact that a near perfect hatch, with eggs chosen by shape is still heavily weighted towards pullets. If the increase of pullets was only because of male mortality based on temp, there would be more eggs culled. I wonder if they would likely all die around the same time in the event of a temp spike.

I believe those who believe it has substance say cooler results in female and warmer results in male. Personally, my bator runs warm and my hatches usually start with pips at day 19 and I still (knock on wood) am having a slightly higher percentage of females. Interesting stuff Gardner. You know me and know I like to stick my tongue out at convention and test the waters myself...lol

 

[lazy gardener]

Interesting. My best ever hatch was the last one. I set 25 eggs. 23 went to lock down. Hatched 22. These eggs were incubated horizontally until lock down, and I then put them upright in egg cartons. The horizontal decision was a "just because" decision, b/c I wasn't pleased with the stats of last hatch. The egg carton, upright lock down was b/c the eggs hadn't lost enough mass due to frequent rainy days which kept my humidity up, thus air cells were smaller than I wanted to see. These studies go to show that the "we do it this way because that's just the way it's done" mentality is worth challenging. I also hatch in a forced air at 100 degrees. IMO that extra 1/2 degree makes all the difference in the world with my hatches. I typically get one or two hatches late day 20, most on day 21, with a lot of break out right around the "hour of set" and a few late bloomers which are often dry, sticky, or malpositioned on day 23. I assist those as needed with a "hot tub hatch", and typically can't tell which ones they were 24 hours later.

Perhaps I should do a set next spring at 99.5 and see if that changes my percentages. However, if you are able to bring a high percentage of your lock down eggs to hatch, and still end up with a high percentage of females by doing egg shape selection, the temp shouldn't matter b/c you won't be loosing those males to temp issues. Also, IMO, certain hens are more apt to produce female offspring. Time for a study to select those females, and then do a study specifically on their eggs to: compare their shape to the shape of the eggs of their flock mates (specifically to the shape of eggs of a female who more often produces male offspring) Then, take the former female, and do an egg shape study based only on her eggs. Do the same with the latter female. Then, it may be time to work on culling the latter hens from the flock, if they can be identified.

 

[Beekissed]

I'm loving all these experiments and links! If I ever do an incubator hatch again, I'll definitely be paying more attention to egg shape and trying to track those chicks more accurately, if possible, so I can see how well this follows through.