⠀ Nutritional loss of fermented feeds. Purina rep insight appreciated.

[Fairview01]

Actually you are very wrong and didn't learn a thing in biology class. Fermenting feed causes a bloom of yeast and beneficial bacteria that increase in number by feeding on the "sugar" and breaking down the feed. While doing this they are increasing the amount of protein and other nutrients created by their growth. An example would be fungi growing on a "rotting" log. The log itself is being broken down (cellulose fibers and starches) but the fungi increase in size and number and hence increase the protein and other nutrients. The protein and nutrients produced by fermentation are of a type that are more readily absorbed/digested by the chicken allowing for higher percentage of nutrient absorption vs waste. A chicken digests approximately 25% of the mass of fresh grains, whereas they digest 85%(+) % of that same feed when fermented.

So are you saying that the first and second law of thermodynamics as they apply to biological systems and the energy cycle does not apply to fermented feed.

 

[Finnie]

 
Actually you are very wrong and didn't learn a thing in biology class.  Fermenting feed causes a bloom of yeast and beneficial bacteria that increase in number by feeding on the "sugar" and breaking down the feed.  While doing this they are increasing the amount of protein and other nutrients created by their growth.  An example would be fungi growing on a "rotting" log.  The log itself is being broken down (cellulose fibers and starches) but the fungi increase in size and number and hence increase the protein and other nutrients.  The protein and nutrients produced by fermentation are of a type that are more readily absorbed/digested by the chicken allowing for higher percentage of nutrient absorption vs waste.  A chicken digests approximately 25% of the mass of fresh grains, whereas they digest 85%(+) % of that same feed when fermented.

So are you saying that the first and second law of thermodynamics as they apply to biological systems and the energy cycle does not apply to fermented feed.  

One thing to keep in mind is, that a certain amount of feed that gets eaten passes through the animal's tract undigested and is then eliminated. So that is a portion of your feed bag being wasted. Most people whose accounts of using fermented feed that I have read say that their feed costs have gone down because their chickens are now able to extract more nutrition from less food than before.

Another thing to consider. Earlier someone said the yeast were eating up the sugars from the feed, in a sense, using up some of it so that the feed was getting depleted. Not so. The sugar molecules didn't disappear, they are turned into the grown yeast, plus the yeast's waste, and are all still there in the fermenting bucket, just in a different form. Which is basically what Rattlerjake explained.

 

[Rattlerjake]

You are correct. My initial comment actually stated the first and second laws of thermodynamics -
1) [Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed], the sugar to yeast and bacteria is the exchange
and
2) ["in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state."], no one ever said that the amount of energy wasn't less, just that the chicken is able to utilize more of it in it's changed state.

 

[Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay]

A chicken digests approximately 25% of the mass of fresh grains, whereas they digest 85%(+) % of that same feed when fermented.

Actually the chicken digest a much greater amount of a normal corn-soy based feed than 25%, maybe you should go back and learn about chicken nutrition before attacking others for their opinions and conclusions.

 

[Rattlerjake]

I said APPROXIMATELY and I didn't specify "corn-soy"! Dry grain feed conversion varies depending upon several factors, which includes (by not limited to) the percentage of grain to other feed ingested, which grains are in the dry grain mix, whether that feed is whole or ground, and what other foods are ingested. Grains (seeds) and legumes (also a seed) contain phytic acid, enzyme inhibitors, tannins, and hard-to-digest proteins that have an anti-nutrient roll. Seeds were created with these items as a protective device to help them survive until conditions are right for them to sprout and grow into mature plants. This is GREAT for the seeds and their continued proliferation, however, it's not so great for people or animals that attempt to use them as a main food source as they deplete our systems of nutrients that are vital to health.The fermentation process uses naturally occurring bacteria to partially break down the food, improving its enzyme content and increasing its levels of vitamins B, C and K. It also makes food MORE digestible, and boosts the "usable" protein level by about 12 percent.

With all of that in mind, dry grain feeds seldom exceed 35% digestibility and fermented feeds increase that digestibility to 75% or more (also based on several factors) - THAT IS WHY THERE IS FAR MORE MANURE FROM DRY GRAIN FEEDS then from fermented feeds.

While sprouting, fermenting, or even just overnight soaking of seeds/grains reduces their anti-nutrient properties making them more available for digestion and use by the body, lacto-fermenting provides another set of benefits. In the book, Real Food Fermentation by Alex Lewin, the author states, "... beyond simply maintaining the vitamin content of raw foods, the process of fermentation can actually create new vitamins, specifically B vitamins and Vitamin K2 , as well as some types of enzymes." (Emphasis added) These additional nutrients are part of the benefit and byproduct of lactic acid bacteria working in the fermentation process.

The other benefits to using fermented feed:

• Feed consumption and waste will drop by 1/2 to 3/4 (this will save you money)
• Poultry on a diet of fermented feed are generally healthier and less likely to contract disease
• There is almost zero waste as chickens don't scratch through it, kicking it out of the feeder
• Stools become more solid and many people report less smell in the coop and run!
• Egg yolks of eggs laid by hens on fermented feed will become noticeably larger, and shells will be more solid.

Fermented feed has the same benefit for humans, as in cheese, yogurt, sourdough bread, wine, beer, kimchi or sauerkraut (just to name a few).

 

[MysteriousMomma]

I said APPROXIMATELY and I didn't specify "corn-soy"! Dry grain feed conversion varies depending upon several factors, which includes (by not limited to) the percentage of grain to other feed ingested, which grains are in the dry grain mix, whether that feed is whole or ground, and what other foods are ingested. Grains (seeds) and legumes (also a seed) contain phytic acid, enzyme inhibitors, tannins, and hard-to-digest proteins that have an anti-nutrient roll. Seeds were created with these items as a protective device to help them survive until conditions are right for them to sprout and grow into mature plants. This is GREAT for the seeds and their continued proliferation, however, it's not so great for people or animals that attempt to use them as a main food source as they deplete our systems of nutrients that are vital to health.The fermentation process uses naturally occurring bacteria to partially break down the food, improving its enzyme content and increasing its levels of vitamins B, C and K. It also makes food MORE digestible, and boosts the "usable" protein level by about 12 percent.

With all of that in mind, dry grain feeds seldom exceed 35% digestibility and fermented feeds increase that digestibility to 75% or more (also based on several factors) - THAT IS WHY THERE IS FAR MORE MANURE FROM DRY GRAIN FEEDS then from fermented feeds.

While sprouting, fermenting, or even just overnight soaking of seeds/grains reduces their anti-nutrient properties making them more available for digestion and use by the body, lacto-fermenting provides another set of benefits. In the book, Real Food Fermentation by Alex Lewin, the author states, "... beyond simply maintaining the vitamin content of raw foods, the process of fermentation can actually create new vitamins, specifically B vitamins and Vitamin K2 , as well as some types of enzymes." (Emphasis added) These additional nutrients are part of the benefit and byproduct of lactic acid bacteria working in the fermentation process.

The other benefits to using fermented feed:

• Feed consumption and waste will drop by 1/2 to 3/4 (this will save you money)
• Poultry on a diet of fermented feed are generally healthier and less likely to contract disease
• There is almost zero waste as chickens don't scratch through it, kicking it out of the feeder
• Stools become more solid and many people report less smell in the coop and run!
• Egg yolks of eggs laid by hens on fermented feed will become noticeably larger, and shells will be more solid.

Fermented feed has the same benefit for humans, as in cheese, yogurt, sourdough bread, wine, beer, kimchi or sauerkraut (just to name a few).

I am new to the BYC forum & do not have chickens yet. I am in the process of researching. While I am not yet savvy on everything chicken related, I do want to point out that fermented foods are highly beneficial for humans to promote healthy gut flora, so why not chickens? It only makes sense to create a food that is easier to absorb nutrients from. For example, as Rattlerjake mentioned the phytic acid in seeds & legumes, phytic acid can be detrimental to human health as well. Even when a person regularly brushes & flosses, the ingestion of ample amounts of phytic acid can cause tooth decay on an internal level (check out Dr. Josh Axe). We are what we eat, so shouldn't we choose feed for our chickens that is based on that concept?

 

[igorsMistress]

Following

 

[Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay]

With all of that in mind, dry grain feeds seldom exceed 35% digestibility and fermented feeds increase that digestibility to 75% or more [/quote]


Your assessment is WRONG! You can can write all you want but the digestibility of non-fermented feed display much much higher.

 

[IdyllwildAcres]

With all of that in mind, dry grain feeds seldom exceed 35% digestibility and fermented feeds increase that digestibility to 75% or more

Your assessment is WRONG! You can can write all you want but the digestibility of non-fermented feed display much much higher.[/QUOTE]

Gary

 

[Finnie]

You have some good information, but you are couching it in terms that are insulting to the people you are speaking with. Fairview01 does not need to go back to class, and NOBODY needs to be told to shut up.