Ok I'm going to go on a little rant here. Has to do with breeders.

[cgmccary]

StrawberryH:

Someone who goes out and buys silkies or any other breed, with the soul purpose of just getting eggs out of them to sell and not even bothering to perfect the adults first so that they can offer something worth the money they are asking, is just scum in my opinion.

Oh, I wouldn't go that far in this terrible economic time we are enduring. "Scum" is a little too harsh a word to use so anonymously without knowing the person personally. Yeah, there are some attributes that may make a person "scum" without knowing them personally, but "someone . . . buying . . a breed of chicken for the sole purpose of getting eggs out of them to sell and not even bothering to perfect the adults first" . . . well, that does not even come close to my definition of scum. & it might be a good person just trying to make ends meet . . . which is OK with me.

Personally, this year, I have been giving my eggs away. I have sold some chicks in the past, but I also drove great distances to deliver them to the people so the costs were not even covered there. Anyone who has my birds and wants to sell the eggs, they are more than welcome to make some money. I won't consider you "scum" or even think negatively of you. If you show a brid bred by me and win, please let me know because you will make me very proud. With my eggs or birds, I give as much history as I know & I don't claim my birds are great. I like them a lot.

Again, I do not know SILKIES and realize the intense breeding challenges are greater with them. So, I sincerely apologize to breeders confronting greater challenges than I. Thanks.​

 

[DuckLady]

I think if the Hattricks have a problem with it, they can address it. Otherwise it is buyer beware like everything else.
Is it worth getting worked up about? Not really.

 

[rodriguezpoultry]

I'm sorry but when purchasing Langshans, I want to know whose lines are in it. For example, I learned quite awhile back that one specific line has drop-dead GORGEOUS birds. Another line from a fellow not far from here has birds that would be good for 4-H and were originally from the drop-dead gorgeous bird's line.

I don't know WHAT he did to screw it up...but he successfully changed the original line so thoroughly I call it a completely different line. The only resemblence there is now to the original line, is that both sets of birds are black.

A good line is going to produce mostly good birds. Unless the person I spoke with above has been the one breeding them...

 

[DANNY]

A serious breeder should know all this and take it for what it's worth. It might get a little tough for inexperienced people but that's how we learn. Lord know's i have took mt lumps. Forums like this is a great way to learn also.

 

[cgmccary]

Speckledhen:I want to know that my birds have a lineage from McDaniel or Meier or one of the other not so common breeders of quality Dels so I know that they didnt come from a hatchery and therefore, are possibly carrying Columbian Rock blood. That doesn't mean I will have all show quality Dels nor that mine are completely from one line or another, but it does tell people that they will be getting true heritage Delawares and not some cheap hatchery imitation. And I certainly hope I am not run out of town on a rail if I mention their lineage. And even if you get them directly from Hattrick, you know that a true show quality bird is not the result every time.

Yes. Well put. I guess it is not as important with Silkies, except she did say that "Polish" blood was an issue, so if you knew a line or a strain was carrying "Polish" that would be a reason to know the lineage.

LoupG: StrawberryHouseMouse wrote:

This person is not showing photos of the parents, they are not showing proof of owning any hattrick silkies and they really are disrespecting us by assuming we would be stupid enough to buy eggs from birds we havent even seen before. Someone who goes out and buys silkies or any other breed, with the soul purpose of just getting eggs out of them to sell and not even bothering to perfect the adults first so that they can offer something worth the money they are asking, is just scum in my opinion.

But that's an entirely different argument, isn't it? This person is apparently unethical, regardless of whose lines s/he claims to have birds from. It has nothing to do with stating what lines those birds are from and nothing to do with being a breeder.

Yes. Good point. We are talking about misrepresentations and not about advertising a lineage. These are two completely different things & IMHO, "misrepresenting" is unethical (and probably makes you close to be "scum") but "advertising a lineage" is probably smart business.​

 

[EweSheep]

I used to raise Amercuana bantams (yep from you Danny

) and they were all goreous birds. I did find out where the stock came from and I crossed them with the Gilbert lines and they have really goreous birds. I got my second and possibly F3 from Danny's stock that I bred and its amazing how the type bring out the best in two different bloodlines and it really clicked. Here's the example of my Amercuana bantam, a F2 (on father's side, Gilbert x Blehm lines and mother is the Blehm lines). She is a beauty but have to work on the bleeding on the neck feathers which it traced from one of her black grandmas (got her directly from Danny). So I have NO problem saying the stock is from Gilbert and Blehm lines and who their breeders were from Danny and his cousin. Thanks Danny for those original stock!

Heres the pic of my Blue Amercuana, Pansi, two year old hen now.

And a pic of her mother, blue Iris:

And a pic of her grandmother, Ruzibecka, her sire's mother:

If that man's Silkies have the Hattrick look, then all means, he has the quality. But not all of them have that "niche" to have that look of Hattrick (oversized head poms and they are the "fancy poodles" of the Silkie breed).

If the word "Hattrick" bothers you, it should not. If Nikki has a problem with people using the "Hattrick" name, she would have go after everybody and she would have wasted alot of time running after people not to use her "trademark" name. If I remember on her website, it was quoted if you buy the Silkie directly from "Hattrick" then it is a Hattrick. If you breed your birds, then it is not a "direct" Hattrick. Its a whole different ball park when one would say, birds bought or came from directly from Hattrick AND the Silkies came from Hattrick lines. So it would be buyer's beware. If you are questioning the "direct" -ness of the Hattrick, maybe contacting Nikki would be the best bet and I dont know if she does her bookwork, perhaps she can tell you yes, she sold the bird to him or no, she didn't sell the bird to him. It does pay to do a little research like I did for Danny's birds and try to trace it down and it was ALL legit information and every one of them vouch for the same story which birds changed hands or who they bought it from, etc.

So do your research first before you jump into breeding good quality Silkies and yes, its buyers beware!

 

[Tailfeathers]

Quote:
I just read through all four pages of this thread and the above says it the best. Personally, I think the rest of the "rant" is much to do about nothing. Those serious enough about getting what they want are going to make a concerted effort to ensure they do. They're not going to just jump all over some auction because somebody's name is in the title of the auction.

I think there has been a lot of confusion between the difference of a "strain' and a "line". Once a person starts breeding their own birds the result then becomes their own line. For example, I breed Ameraucanas, Barnevelders, and Welsummers, let’s just say I got birds directly from Wayne Meredith or Lowell Barber himself. As soon as I start breeding those birds, they become my line. If I mess up the breeding and start turning out inferior birds, nobody can blame Meredith or Lowell. One has to remember, if all the Welsummers in the USA came from the five original breeders and they all kept only superior birds – then why does almost every single hatchery bird have either a DQ or serious fault?

I recently read something on the ABC Forum that makes a lot of sense. Basically it said, "You see this a lot with popular breeds. People will claim their birds are of pure “So and So’s“ strain. But if “So and So” has birds at the same show, the birds from “So and So” usually beat all the other birds from “So and So's” strain. Obviously, “So and So” is using selection criteria that is different than the other breeders with the same strain.

Even the best of breeders will tell you that every now and then God throws them a monkey wrench and they are left scratching their heads. I know a couple of breeders that have bred wonderful looking birds for years and then all of a sudden a DQ or severe fault shows up. What happened? Most likely it was just the selective breeding eventually brought the flaw out after many generations.

That said, if I am buying birds from you, it is good to know who you bought birds from to start my strain. If you have birds that came from a top breeder, that gives me a pretty good idea what kind of genetics are in your birds and therefore subsequently mine. Also, if my strain started from birds that originally came from you, I can go back to you in a couple of years and get a new male or new pair of pullets. This is a good way to get fresh blood into my strain with birds that are likely to be compatible genetically to the strain that I am developing but enough removed to prevent too close inbreeding.

God Bless,

 

[EweSheep]

Tailfeathers, you do have an excellent point or excellent points there!

Yes I can imagine why we got inferior breeds of chickens from the hatchery and makes you scratch your heads wondering how in the heck they got there the first place. You can bet the breeders that are contracted by the hatcheries for hatching eggs, they dont cull out of profit or ignorance to perfect the breed themselves. If we create two lines together that are different such as different breeders called lines AND their originality (German, Holland, Netherlands, etc) would be strains. Oh yeah if we messed up, we will have to go back where we started the generation before and find another line that can make or break your goals.

Sometimes I get confused with the word "strain" and "lines" myself. As in the Arabian horse world, we use that term alot such as "*Bask+" lines and traces to the Skowronek-Ibrahim strain. You can tell alot of the Arabs do trace back to several different strains but not sure if it would be worth while in a very long ancestory, unlike the poultry breeds.

It would be nice to get some pedigree on our birds!

 

[DANNY]

OH MY ! YOU MENTIONED MY NAME. YOU CAN'T DO THAT IN PUBLIC. HA ! HA !

 

[EweSheep]

Why not!!!

They were goreous! Too bad you didn't stay in the breed long enough for me to replish them with new blood!

I think I found your original buffs to a local breeder not far from here that has the son and daughter of the original buffs from you. I have to ask to be certain!