Old and Rare Breeds

[TomNY]

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[flyingmonkeypoop]

I'm totally FOR SCALES at shows. The Sumatras they are showing now are just huge.... way over the Standard I can guarantee it. They are suppose to be 5 lbs. I show Cubalayas that are 6 lbs (Standard weight) and they are dwarfed by the Sumatras.
The worse part is a great majority of the judges will place those Sumatras and make ridiculous comments like, 'Best Sumatra I've ever seen.' How can it be the best when it needs to be DQed!!!!!!!!!

Oh don't even get me started on sumatras, LOL. We have bred our line for about 10 years now, only keeping birds that meet the standard for type (we work with dun and blue as well) but always select for a good looking bird. We have a friend who got some birds from us a few years back and introduced some other well known lines (not going to mention names) and bred towards what the judges are placing. Well, we inherited his whole flock and comparing our birds with his is like 2 different breeds. So many of the sumatras these days are HUGE, they are loose feathered, tails are too long, they just lack the wild, sumatra look and to me they seem more domestic. There is a member here who has birds from a judges line and she talks them up so high. To me, they look like an australorp body with a phoenix tail and a clean faced EE head. According to her, she talks to the judge and he is the one who advises her to breed for birds like that because according to him "that's what sumatras are supposed to look like" meaning the big domestic looking birds.

I could keep going but I have to head off to work for the day but I will continue when I get home tonight!

 

[ramirezframing]

FMP I shake my head at the same member (I think) and my mom talks to me about it and we both just kinda laugh, but as I said I don't show so I could be the one totally wrong. But from what I have read, I'm not.

cant wait to read the rest when you get back

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

The weighing debate has been around for 50 years that I know of.......I'm not sure if it will ever be changed. Talking about it here won't get it done. It is not so much a weighing problem, than it is a judging problem. Most judges know when a bird is overweight/underweight. Things can be changed, but it needs exhibitors complaining in Poultry Press and other venues.....hardly any judges come to BYC.

Most of the big Cochin bantams you see just look big......most are just feathers. The SOP addresses the weight, not the physical size of the bird. looks can sometimes be deceiving. If you see a giant large white Rock it is probably overweight.

I agree that the weights should be used, but it is a judging issue, not a SOP issue. The only way to change it is to campaign the ABA/APA judges sections. There has never been a serious attempt to change this judging practice.

Walt

There have reportedly been a lot of silkie exhibitors who have been told by judges that their silkies were too big; specifically not weight, but physical size. When that has been mentioned on silkie threads here and in other forums, I have countered that there is no standard for size other than weight. Yet it seems to have happened a lot in the past year. One person stated that if it didn't fit in a bantam sized cage (meaning the ones used for OEGB and other smaller bantams), then it is too big. If anything, my silkies run a bit on the small side, yet almost none fit comfortably into a bantam cage. Your comment on the cochins is exactly the same issues as with top quality silkies...mostly feathers.

A scale at a show to verify one's birds' weights or for protests or even for random spot checking breed winners would be great. But there is a TON of opposition to the idea.

 

[Coop Scoop Boogie]

Oh don't even get me started on sumatras, LOL. We have bred our line for about 10 years now, only keeping birds that meet the standard for type (we work with dun and blue as well) but always select for a good looking bird. We have a friend who got some birds from us a few years back and introduced some other well known lines (not going to mention names) and bred towards what the judges are placing. Well, we inherited his whole flock and comparing our birds with his is like 2 different breeds. So many of the sumatras these days are HUGE, they are loose feathered, tails are too long, they just lack the wild, sumatra look and to me they seem more domestic. There is a member here who has birds from a judges line and she talks them up so high. To me, they look like an australorp body with a phoenix tail and a clean faced EE head. According to her, she talks to the judge and he is the one who advises her to breed for birds like that because according to him "that's what sumatras are supposed to look like" meaning the big domestic looking birds.

I could keep going but I have to head off to work for the day but I will continue when I get home tonight!

As I understand it sumatras should be sleek and elegant not a heavy broadbreasted bird.......but
that is JMHO. I did notice that the said member totally dismissed the Schock lines and isn't he
one of the top breeders and has more the sleek bodied lines????

 

[saladin]

Richard Schock got out of birds more than 5 years ago. He was one of the top breeders of Sumatras.

His were considered the best Sumatras in the South.

 

[ramirezframing]

Richard Schock got out of birds more than 5 years ago. He was one of the top breeders of Sumatras.

His were considered the best Sumatras in the South.

he still has his sumatras and minorcas and other birds

 

[Yellow House Farm]

I'm totally FOR SCALES at shows.

Me, too. I think it would be great.

Not all judges are equal.

Isn't that the truth. You'll find "bigger is better" with "sticklers for proper weight" working side by side.

I agree that the weights should be used, but it is a judging issue, not a SOP issue. The only way to change it is to campaign the ABA/APA judges sections. There has never been a serious attempt to change this judging practice.

Walt

I think there are actually a lot of judges that are pro proper weight. Why wouldn't one be? It adds another level of challenge and exactitutde, part of what makes the fancy aspect of poultry interesting and challenging.

I am troubled by any breed of any species that is of the useful sort, but is raised exclusively for the show ring. Whether it is dogs, livestock etc. I don't want to get away from what they were meant to be. Most breeds of poultry were farm fowl. Often they were an improvement over their predecessors, or fit a style of management better.

So many of the sumatras these days are HUGE, they are loose feathered, tails are too long, they just lack the wild, sumatra look and to me they seem more domestic.

There is a lot to be said in this. Those big birds are beautiful birds, but are they beautiful Sumatras? Sumatras have the reputation of being the best flyer of all poultry. Those big birds aren't about to set a record.


Scales at shows would bring a return of consideration of the SOP as presenting a unity, a balance. There's fear that people would flip, but why would they? One takes pencilling seriously. Lacing, hue, condition, type, these all maintain their place. Why not weight? Besides it's not as difficult to breed for as some of the other points. It's really just a basic foundation. People would get over it. Moreover, for those who might threaten to take their toys and go home, well, first I'd call their bluff. They're just folks who have yet to learn how to dialogue. Nevertheless, if someone actually were to leave the fancy because weights were being considered, were they ever any good for the fancy anyways? Is someone actually going to invest all that money and time into the establishment of infrastructure just to stomp out the door because the SOP is actually being used as the point of reference? Are they actually going to quit poultry because Sebrights shouldn't be canary-sized? I'd think not, not in number, and if a few were to, well, I'd say that they were just looking for an excuse to get out of birds anyways, and this would just make for a convenient reason to go out kicking.

 

[cubakid]

Although I'm all for the correct weights, I also think that the bird, if structured as the standards says, should have a solid feel to it. Of course you might be off by a pound or two, but if it is close enough and doesn't look oversized I think it should be ok. I'm not by any means against scales, as I already know as well as the judges that my birds are generally underweight. Rabbit judges use scales( but not all the time, only if it really seems off).

 

[NanaKat]

Nicely stated Yellow House Farms. Joseph your points were spot on and your questions though stated rhetorically, generate good discussion.