old feed

[EggSighted4Life]

Science based data that I've posted on more than one occasion shows that the fermentation process actually produces Methionine and Lysine, 2 very important amino acids. The fermentation process also, in many instances produces B vitamins.

I understand and agree... but I'm saying the feed ALREADY has it (per the labels) and it doesn't show what vitamins or other things DECREASE.

these studies provide compelling evidence that gut microbes contribute to the circulating pool of essential amino acids.

Microbes that are ALREADY in the gut and reproducing on their own without any added help from me.

mazingly, can live on a protein-free diet because their microbiota is capable of synthesizing most or all amino acids required for survival.

Interesting... but I have yet to see anyone who can get away without feeding protein to their birds. Even if the body can do something doesn't mean it can sustain on a large enough scale to support their life in a healthy manner.

Agreed, it's awesome that we can share our experiences here! I will review your link in further detail and really consider what it says instead of just defending my stance though. I am here to learn ALL that I can.

The ever so SLIGHT increase provided by fermenting isn't worth MY time or energy... when I ALREADY use a ration formulated to meet their need, not formulated to meet their needs only if I ferment it. MAYBE if it was 5 birds.. but not at my level where just stirring the trash can size batch of FF was a workout.

 

[lazy gardener]

We shall agree to disagree. Your way is good for you, my way is good for me. While formulated feed does have dried bacteria in it, I find myself wondering how beneficial those dried microbes are. I agree that a healthy chicken gut is already populated with beneficials. I had a problem with your statement that there is no science to back up the benefit of fermentation. I have posted many studies based on science which support the benefit of fermentation of both animal and human feed. I have also seen positive benefit in my flock: last spring, I had shipped chicks that were started on dry feed. I dealt with a bit of pasty butt, and later, several of those chicks were pooping foamy yellow. They were acting fine, so, I did not want to jump on the Corid band wagon. I started FF, and within 24 hours of the switch, these chicks had converted to nicely formed, dry poo.

 

[Peppercorngal]

I am bad, bad, bad. I have old feed that I will use. See, we live in a fire area and we were evacuated THREE times last year and once the year before. We didn't leave (even though we were ordered to) and couldn't go to town or the store for weeks! So we have learned that we need to be ready for these times and stocked up on dog food, chicken food, and people food, as well as gas for the cars. (I wished I'd bought more alcohol!) So I have two bags of chicken feed from late last year not opened yet. I will use it, I can't afford not to, but I'll supplement it. Yes, I know, I am bad!

 

[EggSighted4Life]

I had a problem with your statement that there is no science to back up the benefit of fermentation. I have posted many studies based on science which support the benefit of fermentation of both animal and human feed.

That was a mistake on my part then... I know there are obvious PROVEN benefits to fermentation.

I just haven't seen the studies that show what else happens to the balance of other nutrients that aren't the ones every one is focusing on. And also don't understand why people ACT like a formulated ration isn't good enough... or if EVERY single bite being fermented is as beneficial as the occasional ferment. There have been plenty of times in my life that too much of a good thing actually isn't that good.

And while I was on the fermenting kick... was somehow lead to believe that if my chooks ate dry feed it was somehow bad or not good enough for them. Which simply isn't true.

Please feel free to PM me links as you come across them! I'm not SET in my thoughts or trying to argue, I'm here to learn.

 

[lazy gardener]

ES4L, I am not saying that fermenting is for everyone, nor am I saying that using dry feed is inferior. What I am saying is that the research is there for anyone who wants to look for it. You have a keen mind, and look beyond the obvious statements to what may be below the surface. Every time I go looking for articles, I simply type in a phrase pertaining to fermentation of animal feed, chicken feed, or grains, and find a LOT of studies that compare fermented with non fermented products. It takes me a long time to sift through the information, but any one can do likewise. As for the current trend towards adding dried probiotic bacteria to dry feed, I have to assume that is now being done b/c the research points to the benefits of fermenting grains!

 

[lazy gardener]

Here's a couple questions for you, ES4L: Do you accept at face value the merits of cultured yogurt in comparison to milk? Or do you require a complete analysis of how the exact nutrient balance of every element and amino acid ratio changes in the fermation process? Do all other foods that grace your table receive the same scrutiny? No, I don't really expect you to answer these questions, just tossing them out there for your scrutiny.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Here's a couple questions for you, ES4L: Do you accept at face value the merits of cultured yogurt in comparison to milk? Or do you require a complete analysis of how the exact nutrient balance of every element and amino acid ratio changes in the fermation process? Do all other foods that grace your table receive the same scrutiny? No, I don't really expect you to answer these questions, just tossing them out there for your scrutiny.

Oh gosh, I WISH I could accept MORE things at face value. Most everything that comes onto my radar will face the same sort of scrutiny at some point or another if I become interested in it.

I mean I don't even eat S'mores... but if I'm buying for the bonfire I question which size and shape candy bar is going to melt best under which size and shape of marshmallow and should I get the grahams that are already square, or rectangle ones... generic or brand name, is there a difference in flavor regardless of value???!!! EVERY single detail will cross my mind.

I guess I only buy yogurt because I like it and it's different than milk. And because it's better than say a bag of carrots to me as a snack. Which I wouldn't eat the carrots either, more like chips... but IF I was aiming for a nutritious snack I do accept that string cheese and yogurt are a better choice chips. Never really considered them as an alternative to milk. It's a fun question though! Now to consider what other food I eat that I might not realize are fermented.... and to ASK myself, I wonder what is the difference between fermented and pickled?

I have heard you, loud and clear... the research is out there. No you didn't say it was the only way or for everyone.

Yes, I know you also have a VERY keen mind and search for the deeper Truth too.

I also wonder if the companies with these on their labels are somehow using up fermented byproducts from distilleries... or the spent grains themselves. Seriously though... no TIME for conspiracy theory type stuff!

 

[lazy gardener]

 

[casportpony]

@mamamage The poultry feed expert quoted in Harvey Ussery's book "the Small Scale Poultry Flock" states that feed has a useful shelf life of 6 weeks after being milled. After that time, the nutrients start to oxidize, the oils in the feed become rancid. I use a 6 week rule. If the feed is not fresh enough that I can use it up within 6 weeks, (occasionally a week more) of mill date, I will not buy it.

How can the person with a very small flock manage their flock while providing fresh feed? I would suggest that you:

A. Share a bag with a friend.

B. Freeze most of it. When you bring a bag of feed home, immediately repack it into reasonable sized portions. Seal it as close to air tight as you can get it. When you take a bag out of the freezer, bring it to room temperature before you open it up.