Olive egger breeding question

[tuesdaze]

@GardenTillers44 Please forgive me for jumping in on your thread.
@Lady of McCamley You are very knowledgeable! Will you tell me what color to call my hens' eggs? For the parents, I was told the rooster is an Araucana and I know that hens are Rhode Island Reds. My hens' eggs are a funky light grayish color with blue insides. I don't know if it matters, but the parent Rhode Island Reds had straight (single?) combs and all of these offspring have pea combs. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us who are trying to learn about chickens!

 

[Lady of McCamley]

@tuesdaze I'd have to see a photo of the eggs to tell color, but I can say that if they are blue on the inside, they are blue shelled eggs (base blue) and the grey is likely coming from the bloom on the outside.

That's the short answer. If interested...loooong answer below.
LofMc

Eggs form in the ovary. As an egg drops down the egg tract, the shell gland encapsulates the yolk and albumin (white). If the genetics are present, bile is thrown into the shell calcium producing blue tones. That is why blue eggs are blue inside and out. The shell itself is blue from the additive of bile. If the genetics are not present, the base shell remains white, inside and out.

The egg then moves down the egg tract receiving any brown wash genetically coded (which is actually hemoglobin based, hence the reddish/brown). If no brown wash is applied, the egg will be laid white. If any brown wash is applied, it will be tinted (cream). Varying wash produces varying shades of cream, tan, brown, or chocolate. Crack open a brown egg, even a dark brown egg, and the shell is white inside. Brown is literally pigment painted over the top of the shell.

Brown over white shell...brown egg (varying shades). Brown over blue shell....green (varying shades).

At the very last, as the hen is about to lay, she covers the egg with an anti-microbial coating called the bloom. In some birds this has a very slight tint or is thicker. The result can give the egg a different hue. Pink/plum eggs come from bloom as do grey/lavender depending upon the shell base and brown wash already applied. Typically heavy bloom over brown produces the pinks and plums. Heavy bloom over blue produces the grays and lavenders.

With all of that...from base blue...maybe some brown tint...and a heavy bloom...you could end up with some funky colored looking eggs if the genetics work against you.

From what I've read on the genetics on bloom, it's not well understood. It appears rather elusive. Some breeds seem to be prone to it, for example, the Croad Langshan. That particular line is supposedly noted for pink to plum eggs...even deep plum. The Langshan traditionally was a dark layer (Marans were developed from the original Langshan). With some lines, a pinkish bloom developed over the dark brown to produce a plum egg. (Which actually, I would LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to breed for, but alas, it appears to be pretty elusive and more claim than actual reality, but Croad Langshan is in my final wish list of breeds).

If you used RIR girls (which would be Production Reds if hatchery stock), they typically lay a light tint to medium brown. To get all grey eggs (with blue shells) from a single breeding to your rooster shows your rooster likely has both of the 2 blue genes since all of his progeny received blue to lay blue (no brown layers showed up in his daughters)....or you got really lucky statistically. More breedings from those same hens with your rooster would prove the point.

But to get grey and not green indicates the brown wash is not passing well from your Production Reds. Brown wash is frustrating. As stated in earlier posts, I seem to get about 50% of it passing down from my Barney...who I KNOW has a good color from results over white layers. The good news is, once you've tested the rooster, you can choose which eggs to set as a girl shows her true colors (literally) in her eggs. Only choose the darker eggs or eggs you like for color to hatch from.

Yes. All the daughters would have pea combs. Pea comb is dominant over single, and interestingly, the blue shell gene is closely located to the pea comb genes so that if the pea comb passes, so does a blue shell gene, typically. (In future matings, you could also see some pea comb funk which can happen with pea/single mixes).

As to whether or not you have an Araucana rooster, a photo would be necessary. He may be an F2 or F3 EE which has been bred back enough times to give him 2 blue genes (but not make him a pure breed anything).

I can say that if you are in America, to be Araucana, your rooster would have to be rumpless (have no tail), yellow or willow legged (depending upon feather coloration), and pea combed. He may or may not have ear tufts (tufting is required for show, but to breed you have to breed tufted to non-tufted to get live chicks as tufting to tufting produces 25% dead in shell). There are a variety of colors...so many I don't have them memorized.

If you are in the UK, your Araucana will have a tail. If you are in Australia, it can have crest, muffs and tail. (If I haven't switched those two standards in my head).

It all has to do with the divergent breed standards that evolved out of the original imported Chilean birds, which were a motley mixed crew, but went by the name Araucana (from the Spanish name given to the region). From those original birds developed the different lines that we now think of as Araucana (with different standards) and Ameraucana (the Ameraucana breeders didn't make it to the finish line first in the standards race before the rumpless/tufted Araucana breeders did in the US, so the miffed, muffed/tailed breeders had to create their own APA breed for beards/muffs and tails and bring it to standard...they called it the American Araucana, or Ameraucana).

The term Easter Egger has always meant, in the controversial and convoluted history of Araucana, a mixed and diluted version derived from Araucana. Why do people care? Most don't really, nor do the hatcheries, unless you are trying to breed forward. Then the number of blue genes is very important, and for that, you have to go to pure stock or know the reliable history of the bird. The beauty of pure breeds is the feather coloration and body features tell you what is "under the hood" in the genetics. Mixed breeds are a crap shoot as an earlier poster lamented in their journey to Olive Eggers.

Anywhooo, waaaaay more info than you were probably looking for. Sorry...age setting in, I guess.

Breed another set from the original parents to see if you continue to get grey eggs. If you aren't happy with the color (and honestly, I've seen some grey shades I wouldn't be happy with either), put your blue gene roo over some other hens. Try a white layer to see how true a blue he's got and if grey funk bloom shows up again. Then try a nice brown gal with clean shell. You may be able to figure out if it is the hens adding the heavy bloom genetics (those particular Production Red/RIR) or something that the roo is giving.

And post some photos. It would be fun to see them.
LofMc

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Just so you can see (and yes, so I can show)

Here is what I've figured out with my breeding pattern.

I don't trap nest, but my birds are hatched in small separate batches each year, so its pretty easy to tell who is who and what when new eggs come in.

LofMc

 

[GardenTillers44]

@GardenTillers44 Please forgive me for jumping in on your thread.

No worries from my end...it wasn't my thread to begin with. I'm finding this fascinating and educational.
@Lady of McCamley
Below is an image of one of the BCM x Ameraucana "Olive Eggers" that is laying brown eggs. While the BCM traits are obvious, there doesn't appear to be many Ameraucana traits with these offspring.

Left to right: Black Copper Marans, Blue Copper Marans, Blue Ameraucana, 2-Olive Eggers, Light Sussex, 2-Welsummers

 

[theuglychick]

I LOVE this post! Great information!

I'm trying my hand at olive eggers too this year, since they're so sensational to the public. Ok, they're really pretty and I like them too.

In one pen I have a mature flock of CCL over cuckoo Marans and CL hens. I just hatched out my first CLxCM chicks from this (3) and I'm suspecting it's 2 cockerels and a pullet (of course).

I have another pen set up for a splash blue copper Marans rooster over cuckoos, blue copper Marans, CCL, and super blues egg layers. These are only biddies right now so it'll be about 8 months before I report progress.

I'll retain a few chicks of both sexes from each cross.

If I breed my CL over CM pullets/hens to CM rooster will this preserve the intensity of the brown wash? And save me from having to line breed?

I'm going to hang out here and see how these projects go!

It depends on your overall goals. If you can, keep both roosters to ensure the greatest potential for color. If you can't, then decide if you want to work for olive or eventually blue-green in the line with the one rooster....or always keep a pure breed breeding flock and work only for the first generation.

If you only want to keep a flock of pure breeds to breed each season for first generation olive eggers, then it doesn't matter much which breed the rooster is. Most breeders I've talked to say they get better olive results if the rooster is the dark layer, thus my rooster is a Barnevelder over Cream Legbar and Isbar/Marans F1 hens. Others were happy with a blue-gene rooster over dark layers.

But I also wanted a variety of shades and colors, so I know my Barney boy over white or light layers will produce cream and tan, which he does, as well as the greens and olives over the blue gene girls. That was one of my main reasons for keeping the dark layer vs. the blue layer rooster....my flexibility for color. With a blue gene boy, bred over any color layer, I will get shades of blue or green. No whites, tans, pinks or brown tints possible (if he is a 2 blue gene boy...or pure).

If you want to breed so that all your hens eventually lay blue or green, the work from the pure breed blue gene boy, your Ameraucana.

But, if you want to breed for longevity in olive for the line, using line breeding of daughters back to the father, it is better to keep the dark layer rooster (and his in tact brown wash genetics) to use repeatedly over the blue/olive generations. You keep the fresh dark wash genes passing over the pure breeds (F1 Olive) and then over the olive mixes (F2 Olive) to keep olive alive in the line rather than a diluting the brown wash each generation to where you get light green or even blue.

Generally, the boys are longer lived in fertility than the girls (who phase out by 2, or 3 years, where both quantity and egg shell quality can suffer)... A good rooster should last 5 years in fertility.

That's my thoughts. I've given more genetics below if you are interested as to why this works.

Good luck with your olive project
LofMc

Olive is created by a blue shell receiving brown wash. If there is no brown wash, the egg appears blue. If it is light brown wash, the egg appears light green. If it is a deeper brown wash (Marans, Welsummer, Barnevelder), then the egg appears olive.

Using a dark layer rooster....In your first generation Marans-Ameraucana, you will get light olive to medium olive eggs. Take those daughters and breed back to the Marans boy, you will get the opportunity for olive/dark olive about 50% of the time and brown/dark brown about 50% of the time

It really depends on the genetics of the rooster, and the receiving hen as well, how dark the shades go. With my Barnevelder boy, I find that the deeper brown passes about 50% of the time, so of my F2 Olive Eggers, I got 25% dark olive and 25% medium olive and about 25% medium brown (with pink overtones) and 25% darker brown...but not as dark as the dark Marans scale (I'm working with Barnevelder).

That means every time you breed back an olive daughter you have about 25% chance (depending on the rooster and hen) of increasing the olive depth.

If you switch the equation....Ameraucana rooster over Marans hens, your darkest brown will be the first generation for the brown genetics. I've heard that the hens don't pass the brown wash as well as the roosters, and I think I agree with that through my Barnevlder-Marans projects and some other breedings.

After that first generation of Ameraucana-Marans, you will be increasing the blue genes with each breed back until you get all offspring to 2 blue genes (I think by F3? or maybe F4) and decreasing the brown wash each generation.

1 blue gene layer generally lays a light blue egg. 2 blue gene layer lays a darker blue egg. Lightening wash will eventually get you to darker blue, ocean blue eggs.
You'd have to go back to the original Marans hens to refresh some brown wash to get to olive again.

My experiences...but I'm only about half way through my project...I've got some nice dark olive, some nice medium olive, but I've got to go back and renew my blue to ensure pure blue and a true green as I'm breeding for a full palette of color....got a nice Cream Legbar pullet in grow out for that.

 

[theuglychick]

Just so you can see (and yes, so I can show)

Here is what I've figured out with my breeding pattern.

I don't trap nest, but my birds are hatched in small separate batches each year, so its pretty easy to tell who is who and what when new eggs come in.

LofMc

View attachment 1137981

 

[theuglychick]

A little off-topic, but I've read that isbars breed true for green eggs. Is that correct?

If so, and if it's so difficult/impossible (?) to get a true-breeding olive egger, how do the isbars breed true without the eggs eventually becoming all blue or all brown/tan?

Just curious!

 

[theuglychick]

And I'm sorry for jumping in here, too.

I get excited when I find someone with great information on a topic that interests me!

 

[Lady of McCamley]

A little off-topic, but I've read that isbars breed true for green eggs. Is that correct?

If so, and if it's so difficult/impossible (?) to get a true-breeding olive egger, how do the isbars breed true without the eggs eventually becoming all blue or all brown/tan?

Just curious!

Because they are a breed not a hybrid mix. They have both genes for blue (2) and genes for brown wash (which is not fully understood but thought to encompass about 13 different genes).

Whenever you mix breeds, however, then you are at the mercy of the genetic crap shoot. One sibling may get more of this or that than another. It's impossible to get uniformity with mix breeds due to all the genetic combinations possible...that's why they are mix breeds and not pure breeds. Standardization in pure breeds gives you characteristics to expect.

But of course individual birds vary even within stable breeds. One Isbar's egg will appear a bit bluer than another's, but overall, they are a blue-green. (I've had more variations in my Cream Legbars).

LofMc

 

[theuglychick]

Again, great information! That makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to explain this to us!

Because they are a breed not a hybrid mix. They have both genes for blue (2) and genes for brown wash (which is not fully understood but thought to encompass about 13 different genes).

Whenever you mix breeds, however, then you are at the mercy of the genetic crap shoot. One sibling may get more of this or that than another. It's impossible to get uniformity with mix breeds due to all the genetic combinations possible...that's why they are mix breeds and not pure breeds. Standardization in pure breeds gives you characteristics to expect.

But of course individual birds vary even within stable breeds. One Isbar's egg will appear a bit bluer than another's, but overall, they are a blue-green. (I've had more variations in my Cream Legbars).

LofMc