Ongoing Brahma Projects Thread

[BeachBumBiddies]

Oh..wow! I did not know that. So you are actually the starter of these colors in the US? You have every right to get your feathers ruffled. I would do the same. Your birds are gorgeous & your dedication to the breed & these colors is awesome. I only hope to have some birds of your quality one day...

 

[big medicine]

Thanks, I fear it comes off as harping, but someday if any of these birds should ever get accepted in to the Standard of Perfection. I would like to keep their history clear, Here is a link to a much more detailed history of their development. Dan could not erase his posts on that site, but did change his user name to anonymous after it all blew up over here on BYC. Some day I should update the status of these projects on that site. The whole debacle kind of took the fun out of posting about it. I see folks on other continents have used the blue prints layed out here and have started their own similar projects.
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=29277&page=1

 

[Marthab1953]

Oh..wow! I did not know that. So you are actually the starter of these colors in the US? You have every right to get your feathers ruffled. I would do the same. Your birds are gorgeous & your dedication to the breed & these colors is awesome. I only hope to have some birds of your quality one day...

x2 I agree!

Your Brahmas are gorgeous and that is not right of someone else to take the credit.

 

[bumpercarr]

The solid black head/neck hackles (or blue, or splash in some cases) is a carry over from these guys distant Cornish ancestry. I bred it out in the silver laced line. In the gold laced line I tolerated it in a few birds of exceptional type. But when I bred in the blue, it really seemed to pop, and I started to breed for it. I guess that's an advantage with creating your own varieties, you can breed for what you like to some degree.

The blue laced reds still need considerable work. For example the male I said that will likely head up a double laced pen this spring, I would have preferred he be the darker red/ mahogany that some of the others posses. But he has so much better type and size I will put up with a little orange for a couple years in favor of improving type. As the old breeders say, you have to build the barn before you paint it.

I looked up the high view farms birds. They I am sure are out of a couple of blue laced gold verging on buff birds I gave Dan Powell several years ago to help with his buff laced project. He went a little off his intended use of these along with some gift silver laced I sent him for a spangled Brahma project,. He instead started producing and selling both colors, worse he later tried to claim he had created both varieties, which resulted in me calling him out and setting the facts straight, getting the Brahma thread shut down for a while. Dan removing all his posts, changing his user name, and eventually quit posting here altogether. If you scroll down the page linked below you can read the cleaned up version the moderators deemed fit to leave, considerably more pasteurized, but you can get most of the drift.https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/169790/brahma-thread/2990 As you maybe can tell, this still gets my feathers up a bit. A person works too long and hard developing a variety for the results to be muddied after the fact. Back to what got me going on my little rant here is the birds I see on that website are gold, blue laced gold, I see no sign of red/mahogany and should be listed as such.

I don't know if High View Farms has the blue laced reds anymore, I visited her farm this year when I went to pick up my gold partridges after the dog attack and I didn't see any...but I'll admit I wasn't looking for them either. I do know that she picked up a lot of Powell's birds when he moved on to other things.

I see what you mean about that male being a little on the orange side, but your females sure have a beautiful mahogany color! Maybe he won't wash out the mahogany too much, although I know I've heard you say that it is really easy to lose the mahogany when you are working on type. Did the mahogany come from the Cornish as well?

I would also be very irritated if someone else took the credit for my work. You know, you have a vision (at least I do) and then you work really hard towards achieving the vision and then when you share it someone else comes along and all of the sudden all of your hard work is damaged. The serious work on my birds starts in a few months, I saw the first signs of mating attempts and even heard an egg song going on yesterday (no egg, but should be soon). I don't have the breeding pens broken out yet, but after I work on the VH carrier breeding (starting that when I get back from Ohio), I'll be able to split everyone up into the breeding pens that I want and get some serious work done. I hope that you'll be able to give me some advice at that point, I'm pretty sure that I'm going to need it!

Right now, I don't have a lot to choose from as far as the gold partridge goes. I have two males, one has the VH gene so I won't breed him so that leaves me with one male (I know for a fact that he doesn't have the VH gene). Then, I have 8 pullets (9 if you count the chick with VHs, but we won't count her). Of those 8, one looks like it may have VHs but they aren't as defined as most I've seen, but I'll still pass on her. I have two that look like they have bunny tails, won't use those unless something changes (like they grow in a tail). I have one that I know is a VH carrier, won't use her. So, that leaves me with 4 pullets that don't have really visible problems. Out of those 4, one is a strange color (sunflower yellow instead of gold) but she has the best body type. So, if the statistics hold true, I'll be lucky if two of these 4 are not VH carriers and I can breed them. But, the good news is that I have 2 dark pullets that are really nice and when I put the gold cockerel over them I'll be able to get gold partridge back, and hopefully some nice ones. There is one more pullet, but she may be a VH carrier, so until I know I won't breed her. I also have a dark cockerel that I really like, not sure how I'm going to use him yet if none of the gold pullets work out for me, if they do work out I'll put him over the golds. Finally, I'm picking up a dark pair in Ohio when I'm there so I can build my dark pen.

Whew, so next fall I should have a good selection of birds to choose from. I can only keep about 60 on my place, every late winter/early spring I'd like to start with about 12 breeders. I wouldn't even have this plan if it wasn't for all of the help that you've given me over the past year or more. I don't think I can ever thank you enough for your willingness to share your wisdom. Even with the limited number of birds that I have right now, and my constant desire to overturn my culling decisions and second guess myself, I'm following your advice to cull hard. Next year, it should be hatch a lot and cull really hard.

 

[sharron]

The solid black head/neck hackles (or blue, or splash in some cases) is a carry over from these guys distant Cornish ancestry. I bred it out in the silver laced line. In the gold laced line I tolerated it in a few birds of exceptional type. But when I bred in the blue, it really seemed to pop, and I started to breed for it. I guess that's an advantage with creating your own varieties, you can breed for what you like to some degree.

The blue laced reds still need considerable work. For example the male I said that will likely head up a double laced pen this spring, I would have preferred he be the darker red/ mahogany that some of the others posses. But he has so much better type and size I will put up with a little orange for a couple years in favor of improving type. As the old breeders say, you have to build the barn before you paint it.

I looked up the high view farms birds. They I am sure are out of a couple of blue laced gold verging on buff birds I gave Dan Powell several years ago to help with his buff laced project. He went a little off his intended use of these along with some gift silver laced I sent him for a spangled Brahma project,. He instead started producing and selling both colors, worse he later tried to claim he had created both varieties, which resulted in me calling him out and setting the facts straight, getting the Brahma thread shut down for a while. Dan removing all his posts, changing his user name, and eventually quit posting here altogether. If you scroll down the page linked below you can read the cleaned up version the moderators deemed fit to leave, considerably more pasteurized, but you can get most of the drift.https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/169790/brahma-thread/2990 As you maybe can tell, this still gets my feathers up a bit. A person works too long and hard developing a variety for the results to be muddied after the fact. Back to what got me going on my little rant here is the birds I see on that website are gold, blue laced gold, I see no sign of red/mahogany and should be listed as such.

now we all understand why you would get po-ed, your hard work has paid off and someone else is taking the credit, not fair at all.

 

[big medicine]

I don't know if High View Farms has the blue laced reds anymore, I visited her farm this year when I went to pick up my gold partridges after the dog attack and I didn't see any...but I'll admit I wasn't looking for them either. I do know that she picked up a lot of Powell's birds when he moved on to other things.

I see what you mean about that male being a little on the orange side, but your females sure have a beautiful mahogany color! Maybe he won't wash out the mahogany too much, although I know I've heard you say that it is really easy to lose the mahogany when you are working on type. Did the mahogany come from the Cornish as well?

I would also be very irritated if someone else took the credit for my work. You know, you have a vision (at least I do) and then you work really hard towards achieving the vision and then when you share it someone else comes along and all of the sudden all of your hard work is damaged. The serious work on my birds starts in a few months, I saw the first signs of mating attempts and even heard an egg song going on yesterday (no egg, but should be soon). I don't have the breeding pens broken out yet, but after I work on the VH carrier breeding (starting that when I get back from Ohio), I'll be able to split everyone up into the breeding pens that I want and get some serious work done. I hope that you'll be able to give me some advice at that point, I'm pretty sure that I'm going to need it!

Right now, I don't have a lot to choose from as far as the gold partridge goes. I have two males, one has the VH gene so I won't breed him so that leaves me with one male (I know for a fact that he doesn't have the VH gene). Then, I have 8 pullets (9 if you count the chick with VHs, but we won't count her). Of those 8, one looks like it may have VHs but they aren't as defined as most I've seen, but I'll still pass on her. I have two that look like they have bunny tails, won't use those unless something changes (like they grow in a tail). I have one that I know is a VH carrier, won't use her. So, that leaves me with 4 pullets that don't have really visible problems. Out of those 4, one is a strange color (sunflower yellow instead of gold) but she has the best body type. So, if the statistics hold true, I'll be lucky if two of these 4 are not VH carriers and I can breed them. But, the good news is that I have 2 dark pullets that are really nice and when I put the gold cockerel over them I'll be able to get gold partridge back, and hopefully some nice ones. There is one more pullet, but she may be a VH carrier, so until I know I won't breed her. I also have a dark cockerel that I really like, not sure how I'm going to use him yet if none of the gold pullets work out for me, if they do work out I'll put him over the golds. Finally, I'm picking up a dark pair in Ohio when I'm there so I can build my dark pen.

Whew, so next fall I should have a good selection of birds to choose from. I can only keep about 60 on my place, every late winter/early spring I'd like to start with about 12 breeders. I wouldn't even have this plan if it wasn't for all of the help that you've given me over the past year or more. I don't think I can ever thank you enough for your willingness to share your wisdom. Even with the limited number of birds that I have right now, and my constant desire to overturn my culling decisions and second guess myself, I'm following your advice to cull hard. Next year, it should be hatch a lot and cull really hard.

To my understanding of mahogany, either you have it, or you don't. Being a dominant trait, it only takes a single copy to show itself. So the male likely to head up a double laced pen does not have it. But he brings enough size and type wise I think it worth the trade off. I did not get any shots of the double laced females, unless possibly the pinfeather queen shot, but they can contribute a copy of mahogany to their chicks. I'll then give preference to the resulting darker chicks of type. Yeah, these guys probably get their mahogany from their Cornish ancestry as well, could be from the Wyandotte I used to introduce the blue, but I don't recall that crazy son of a gun being too dark, and was gone as soon as I had a blue chick out of him.


Here is a older shot of a double laced hen, showing a little "rooster rash", but you get the idea. (Hopefully Tim doesn't see I said rooster, on a public forum no less.)

 

[bumpercarr]

To my understanding of mahogany, either you have it, or you don't. Being a dominant trait, it only takes a single copy to show itself. So the male likely to head up a double laced pen does not have it. But he brings enough size and type wise I think it worth the trade off. I did not get any shots of the double laced females, unless possibly the pinfeather queen shot, but they can contribute a copy of mahogany to their chicks. I'll then give preference to the resulting darker chicks of type. Yeah, these guys probably get their mahogany from their Cornish ancestry as well, could be from the Wyandotte I used to introduce the blue, but I don't recall that crazy son of a gun being too dark, and was gone as soon as I had a blue chick out of him.


Here is a older shot of a double laced hen, showing a little "rooster rash", but you get the idea. (Hopefully Tim doesn't see I said rooster, on a public forum no less.)

So, if I'm hearing you right (and filling in between the lines) you outcross to either a Cornish or Wyandotte to get your blue (in my case, I'm looking for the red). You chose the best type that you could of the brahma hens, bred and hatched enough to have a good choice and then kept the blues out of that generation that were the closest to brahma type and had the color that you wanted. Did you then breed those blues back to your original hens to fix any type problems that may have cropped up or did you use a different line?

In my case, I'm trying to find the red but I'm having a hard time choosing which breed to use to try to bring the red in. There's no hurry for me, I have too much work to do on the golds to worry to much about trying to add color yet. I think that I have two years of work on type if everything goes well, then I can think about the color if I want to tackle that problem. I'd love to make some true partridge birds (red instead of wildtype gold), but that is a project for further down the road.

LOL at the "rooster" comment. I just was arguing with my youngest son yesterday when he called one of my birds a rooster. Wanted to throttle him.

The dark I'm using to test for vulture hocks is also a mean son of a gun, not to me but to the rest of the chickens. Everyday I have to hold myself back from sending him to freezer camp. Fortunately, I'm close enough now to being able to breed the girls that I need to check that I can wait a little while longer. I really want him out of my pens though.

Got the first egg out of the older pullet pen yesterday. I'll be able to test breed those birds pretty soon I think.

Leaving for Ohio tomorrow. Can't wait!

 

[big medicine]

So, if I'm hearing you right (and filling in between the lines) you outcross to either a Cornish or Wyandotte to get your blue (in my case, I'm looking for the red). You chose the best type that you could of the brahma hens, bred and hatched enough to have a good choice and then kept the blues out of that generation that were the closest to brahma type and had the color that you wanted. Did you then breed those blues back to your original hens to fix any type problems that may have cropped up or did you use a different line?

In my case, I'm trying to find the red but I'm having a hard time choosing which breed to use to try to bring the red in. There's no hurry for me, I have too much work to do on the golds to worry to much about trying to add color yet. I think that I have two years of work on type if everything goes well, then I can think about the color if I want to tackle that problem. I'd love to make some true partridge birds (red instead of wildtype gold), but that is a project for further down the road.

LOL at the "rooster" comment. I just was arguing with my youngest son yesterday when he called one of my birds a rooster. Wanted to throttle him.

The dark I'm using to test for vulture hocks is also a mean son of a gun, not to me but to the rest of the chickens. Everyday I have to hold myself back from sending him to freezer camp. Fortunately, I'm close enough now to being able to breed the girls that I need to check that I can wait a little while longer. I really want him out of my pens though.

Got the first egg out of the older pullet pen yesterday. I'll be able to test breed those birds pretty soon I think.

Leaving for Ohio tomorrow. Can't wait!

I outcrossed to a splash laced red Wyandotte (probably actually gold, from hatchery stock) to bring the blue into my gold (some red) laced Brahma project pen. I kept the best typed of both black and blue laced chicks, still do. As long as I have some blue, or splash, to keep blue as an option I concentrate on type, then pattern, then color. I could probably have a much cleaner laced and darker red flock by now but probably smaller, poorer typed.

This is a group shot of my females, of assorted colors, and patterns. With a couple males also.


If I was you I wouldn't worry about outcrossing to a different breed to get mahogany. I would concentrate on building good typey gold partridge for a couple years yet. Then when they become available go buy a mahogany based partridge Brahma to breed it into your birds. I figure the cost of a bird versus the thousands of $ you'll spend in feed (and years) trying to breed back to Brahma type after a outcross will be a very good investment

 

[bumpercarr]

I outcrossed to a splash laced red Wyandotte (probably actually gold, from hatchery stock) to bring the blue into my gold (some red) laced Brahma project pen. I kept the best typed of both black and blue laced chicks, still do. As long as I have some blue, or splash, to keep blue as an option I concentrate on type, then pattern, then color. I could probably have a much cleaner laced and darker red flock by now but probably smaller, poorer typed.

This is a group shot of my females, of assorted colors, and patterns. With a couple males also.


If I was you I wouldn't worry about outcrossing to a different breed to get mahogany. I would concentrate on building good typey gold partridge for a couple years yet. Then when they become available go buy a mahogany based partridge Brahma to breed it into your birds. I figure the cost of a bird versus the thousands of $ you'll spend in feed (and years) trying to breed back to Brahma type after a outcross will be a very good investment

That is good advice. I noticed that the cockerel that the Aldridges are parting with this weekend was more mahogany than gold. I'll find out who got that bird and then contact them when I'm ready to try to bring the red in. It's nice to know that my current plan is probably my best option. I wasn't planning on worrying about the red for a while just concentrating on type, and I'm going to stick to that plan.

 

[Cfmills]

[/IMG] these are 2 of my young birds. Big medicine, could I get a blue laced red from either of these?