Oregon

[Cloverleaf Farm]

Nope. I never recommend people buy from hatcheries. They breed for quantity, not quality. It costs exactly the same to feed a quality bird that is a good representation of the breed you want, as it does to feed a hatchery bird that may not even resemble the breed it's supposed to be.

I can completely appreciate how a person isn't likely to get a pure-bred show-quality bird from a big hatchery. And as much as I'd love to eventually start breeding beautiful (and healthy!) heritage birds myself, I'm struggling to see a practical alternative to buying hatchery chicks with which to build "every-day" flocks given all the logistics and bio-security concerns. Especially for meat birds.

How does a naive noob find a quality local source for birds? How about a source for meat birds and production layers? How comparatively "safe" are day-old chicks from hatcheries (feed stores) vs. non-hatcheries? Are there certifications for small-scale breeders? If so, how can a person verify that the certifications are genuine and up-to-date? I haven't had a lot of direct contact with the local poultry community, but from what I've seen it would be very easy to cross paths with someone who has no problems being unsafe or dishonest. And shipping birds introduces another level of concerns.

Just because you buy something from a hatchery doesn't mean it's safe. I know a very long time breeder who broke his own rule and brought home some chicks from the feed store, and despite quarantine, proceeded to lose around 80% of his flock. 100% of his adult breeders died. He was only able to save the youngsters that hadn't been outside at all yet. Hatchery birds come with their own laundry list of concerns, as Matt said, breeder birds tend to be stronger genetically, hatchery birds have more production problems, they tend to egg bind, they are more prone to internal laying and egg peritonitis too. I'm not even talking about show quality, I'm just meaning that hatchery birds are less likely to possess the basic breed characteristics of their supposed breed. A prime example is Ameraucanas, but that's a whole other soap box that I'm not going to climb into right now. Several years ago I bought some "Welsummer" pullets from the feed store just for some nice eggs in my layer flock. 3 of the 6 ended up being some kind of Leghorn cross, big floppy combs, skinny Leghorn bodies, and they layed big light brown eggs. Probably Leghorn, Welsummer crosses. As far as meat birds, that is a soap box I will get on briefly....buying Cornish cross meat birds not only supports Tyson (they own the genetics, and all those chicks only come from one of two hatcheries world wide), a company that regularly abuses chickens, but also continues the practice of breeding these monstrosities. It has been proven that Cornish cross chicks are in constant pain for the entirety of their short lived, due to their rate of growth. If you want meat birds, that's yet another argument for getting into a truly dual purpose breed, that is an excellent egg producer as well as table bird. That is breed for its original purpose, rather than just for exhibition. It might take a bit of doing to find a good breeder that is doing the breed justice, but the rewards for a little bit of leg work will be huge.

 

[OR4-hmom]

I can't say for sure that air quality in town will be better than where she's at in Murphy, it is better in town than where we are.

 

[LittleLaneFarm]

Oops, wrong thread

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Health concerns are drastically over blown by newcomers and uneducated backyard folks. You're likely to get far healthier stock from a breeder because a lot of them (especially the ones with decades of experience) subscribe to the survival of the fittest theory. Ever hear the old adage "a poultryman's medicine kit is a sharp hatchet"?

NPIP is good but really only guaranteed to not have pullorum thyphoid and avian influenza in WA and OR (I think? Would have to double check)

Basically do your research, inspect the birds carefully or have someone experienced do it and you should be ok. There are risks and dangers. I suggest people join either Washington Feather Fanciers or Pacific Northwest Poultry Association or attend te shows (or stop by their booth at the swap meets when present) and they can also point you towards reputable people. I share your distrust of Internet folk and have been burned even by folks on this site. Shipping birds isn't a bad thing at all if you are absolutely sure of the persons reputation.

If you know what breed you're interested in one of the best things you can do is contact the breed club and they can point you in the right direction as well.

I do realize that if I'm going to be serious about poultry it will mean "starting over" with quality breeds from "real" breeders so my flock(s) can be mostly self-sustaining and dual-purpose. I'd also love to help with preservation/conservation if possible. I don't think my experience with hatchery birds will be very useful in selecting breeds to work with once we find "real" breeders to buy from. Personally I'm interested in the biggest variety of egg colors (I'm very motivated by the beauty of eggs) but also need decent laying rates as I already have some egg customers.

Unfortunately, I cannot attend swaps and otherwise "hang out" much in person with chicken people (no offense to chicken people, it's not you, it's me), so was hoping to get some reliable referrals. Ideally I'd like to have my own broody hens raise the chicks, so that requires an extra layer of coordination. I had hoped to get started with that this spring, but it was our first spring with adult birds and we weren't sure how it would go so we decided against it. We did end up with a lot of adorable mystery mutts from our own flock, which was good experience but doesn't move us closer to the bigger goals.

Along with that I'd also like to do several small seasonal runs of meat birds and would prefer to have a local source for the chicks to avoid the issues of shipping them during heat waves etc. I don't know of any alternative to hatcheries for sourcing meat birds. Am I wrong? Are there any "good" local sources to buy meat birds from?

We've had a lot of fun buying birds from the feed store, but I do think we could do better. I believe it is time to either get serious or get out.

I really would appreciate any referrals/recommendations people would be willing to give me.

(I've been to all of one swap and some of what I saw there was very sad ... and had other experiences which make me VERY wary. I'd love to have a mentor.)

 

[Zanna]

I do realize that if I'm going to be serious about poultry it will mean "starting over" with quality breeds from "real" breeders so my flock(s) can be mostly self-sustaining and dual-purpose. I'd also love to help with preservation/conservation if possible. I don't think my experience with hatchery birds will be very useful in selecting breeds to work with once we find "real" breeders to buy from. Personally I'm interested in the biggest variety of egg colors (I'm very motivated by the beauty of eggs) but also need decent laying rates as I already have some egg customers.

Unfortunately, I cannot attend swaps and otherwise "hang out" much in person with chicken people (no offense to chicken people, it's not you, it's me), so was hoping to get some reliable referrals. Ideally I'd like to have my own broody hens raise the chicks, so that requires an extra layer of coordination. I had hoped to get started with that this spring, but it was our first spring with adult birds and we weren't sure how it would go so we decided against it. We did end up with a lot of adorable mystery mutts from our own flock, which was good experience but doesn't move us closer to the bigger goals.

Along with that I'd also like to do several small seasonal runs of meat birds and would prefer to have a local source for the chicks to avoid the issues of shipping them during heat waves etc. I don't know of any alternative to hatcheries for sourcing meat birds. Am I wrong? Are there any "good" local sources to buy meat birds from?

We've had a lot of fun buying birds from the feed store, but I do think we could do better. I believe it is time to either get serious or get out.

I really would appreciate any referrals/recommendations people would be willing to give me.

(I've been to all of one swap and some of what I saw there was very sad ... and had other experiences which make me VERY wary. I'd love to have a mentor.)

First off I want to thank BG Matt and Cloverleaf for taking the time in helping to educate all those wanting to learn and be informed! Wish I had known about BYC and them when I started my chicken venture many years ago!

LeslieDJoyce I would encourage you to explore the Delaware breed when you are ready. Very nice meat birds, great year round layers and broody/good Mommas. I am just getting started with a new recreated line and they seriously look like double breasted meat birds, little chunkers!! I expect them to finish out very large although they are much slower to grow than a cornish x as is the case with any Heritage breed. I plan to help spread these wonderfull birds around when the time comes, probably do my first breedings mid winter. This breed needs help, they were almost lost...............

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

As far as meat birds, that is a soap box I will get on briefly....buying Cornish cross meat birds not only supports Tyson (they own the genetics, and all those chicks only come from one of two hatcheries world wide), a company that regularly abuses chickens, but also continues the practice of breeding these monstrosities. It has been proven that Cornish cross chicks are in constant pain for the entirety of their short lived, due to their rate of growth.
If you want meat birds, that's yet another argument for getting into a truly dual purpose breed, that is an excellent egg producer as well as table bird. That is breed for its original purpose, rather than just for exhibition. It might take a bit of doing to find a good breeder that is doing the breed justice, but the rewards for a little bit of leg work will be huge.

I agree with what you write. I could go breed by breed down the list of hatchery chicks we've raised to illustrate difference between them and the SOP. But I'll spare you.

I have done one small batch of Cornish Cross (a feed store promotion), and they were truly delicious and huge and very much an "efficient" choice and just thinking about it makes me hungry for more and want to share with the whole world. But still ...

I thought they were cute and they certainly were "easy," but they aren't "right."

What do you think about any of the other special meat bird breeds? Are any of those more ethical? Any of them "sustainable?"

What breeds do you recommend for Dual Purpose?

Out of the hatchery birds we've raise, the ones that show the most promise as Dual Purpose are the Speckled Sussex and the Gold Laced Wyandottes as they are pretty much the only ones worth eating, but that could just be odd hatchery genetics talking. I've kept a rooster of each of those two breeds just in case I decided to work with them for dual purposes.

And for the big question: Are you willing to share any specific information about where to purchase whatever breeds you do recommend?

I have some people who are pressing me to start a growing group for meat birds, but they are really interested in producing the birds as quickly and cheaply as possible so folded up all their "happy chicken" ideals when I showed them the numbers on Cornish Cross vs. other breeds of meat birds. Dual Purpose breeds as meat birds might be a very tough sell.

We are so spoiled regarding the cost of food here in the USA, and I'm finding many people have a fantasy that if they buy food from a small farmer they should pay less than at the supermarket. Especially if the food isn't "organic."

That said, I have had two customers insist on paying more for the eggs I sell than what I was charging. That was nice of them. But I'm still selling my eggs at a loss. I've also had a couple customers ask about "retired" laying hens for meat.

Related to all of the above: I need to find a better source for chicken food. Anyone care to make recommendations about that?

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

First off I want to thank BG Matt and Cloverleaf for taking the time in helping to educate all those wanting to learn and be informed! Wish I had known about BYC and them when I started my chicken venture many years ago!

LeslieDJoyce I would encourage you to explore the Delaware breed when you are ready. Very nice meat birds, great year round layers and broody/good Mommas. I am just getting started with a new recreated line and they seriously look like double breasted meat birds, little chunkers!! I expect them to finish out very large although they are much slower to grow than a cornish x as is the case with any Heritage breed. I plan to help spread these wonderfull birds around when the time comes, probably do my first breedings mid winter. This breed needs help, they were almost lost...............

Ditto! Big thanks to BG Matt and Cloverleaf!

Thank you too Zanna for the recommendation of the Deleware breed. I love the idea of doing breed preservation along with dual-purpose production. Any chance they lay rainbow colored eggs, too?

 

[Zanna]

Ditto! Big thanks to BG Matt and Cloverleaf!

Thank you too Zanna for the recommendation of the Deleware breed. I love the idea of doing breed preservation along with dual-purpose production. Any chance they lay rainbow colored eggs, too?

Nope, I've got Black Copper Marans and Ameraucanas for that! Well, at least for the rainbow coloured carton Some of them do lay a really pink looking egg though, my egg customers love that one. The first thing the customers always do is open the carton and oohh and ahh at all the colours so I do know what you mean! I once gave a customer a full dozen chocolate marans eggs that all looked identical, thought she would love them. She was dissapointed and said 1/2 the fun for her was being able to choose the colour of egg she wanted to use at any given time.

 

[Cloverleaf Farm]

As far as meat birds, that is a soap box I will get on briefly....buying Cornish cross meat birds not only supports Tyson (they own the genetics, and all those chicks only come from one of two hatcheries world wide), a company that regularly abuses chickens, but also continues the practice of breeding these monstrosities. It has been proven that Cornish cross chicks are in constant pain for the entirety of their short lived, due to their rate of growth.

If you want meat birds, that's yet another argument for getting into a truly dual purpose breed, that is an excellent egg producer as well as table bird. That is breed for its original purpose, rather than just for exhibition. It might take a bit of doing to find a good breeder that is doing the breed justice, but the rewards for a little bit of leg work will be huge.

I agree with what you write. I could go breed by breed down the list of hatchery chicks we've raised to illustrate difference between them and the SOP. But I'll spare you. 

I have done one small batch of Cornish Cross (a feed store promotion), and they were truly delicious and huge and very much an "efficient" choice and just thinking about it makes me hungry for more and want to share with the whole world. But still ...  I thought they were cute and they certainly were "easy," but they aren't "right."

What do you think about any of the other special meat bird breeds? Are any of those more ethical? Any of them "sustainable?"

What breeds do you recommend for Dual Purpose? 

Out of the hatchery birds we've raise, the ones that show the most promise as Dual Purpose are the Speckled Sussex and the Gold Laced Wyandottes as they are pretty much the only ones worth eating, but that could just be odd hatchery genetics talking. I've kept a rooster of each of those two breeds just in case I decided to work with them for dual purposes. 

And for the big question: Are you willing to share any specific information about where to purchase whatever breeds you do recommend?

I have some people who are pressing me to start a growing group for meat birds, but they are really interested in producing the birds as quickly and cheaply as possible so folded up all their "happy chicken" ideals when I showed them the numbers on Cornish Cross vs. other breeds of meat birds. Dual Purpose breeds as meat birds might be a very tough sell.

We are so spoiled regarding the cost of food here in the USA, and I'm finding many people have a fantasy that if they buy food from a small farmer they should pay less than at the supermarket. Especially if the food isn't "organic."

That said, I have had two customers insist on paying more for the eggs I sell than what I was charging. That was nice of them. But I'm still selling my eggs at a loss. I've also had a couple customers ask about "retired" laying hens for meat.

Related to all of the above: I need to find a better source for chicken food. Anyone care to make recommendations about that?

Honestly, I don't have the info on things like Freedom Rangers, because I try to just stay away from all of that, I know more than I want to about the Cx as it is.

I stand by a true dual purpose heritage breed as being the best way to do sustainable meat birds really well. As Zanna said, Delawares...one of my top four dual purpose breeds. And she is the best source I know for them. Dominiques are another one, Heaven Roberts in Sweet Home is your source for those. Buckeyes are one of my favorites, I'm just getting a breeding flock of those set up at the barn I used to board my horse at, in the meantime I do know a couple of sources for those up in Washington. If course, my personal breed of choice would be Faverolles. They were originally bred in France as a table bird that would also be a good winter layer. My flock rooster is not even a year old yet and already larger than his dad, who is 10#. And they are very sweet, docile birds. Another plus to Buckeyes, is that they are known to be good mousers.

I agree that it is difficult to convince people to spend more time and money raising dual purpose birds to butchering age, when they would rather spend $3/chick on Cornish cross that they only have to feed for 8 weeks. But as people learn about Cornish cross, about what they endure in their little lives, and what it really means to raise them, they tend to come around. BUT it takes the rest of us to do what we preach, to educate others, and to take our few dollars or of the pockets of the hatcheries. I also don't let my 4-H club take part in the market class at Clackamas County Fair. If they ever add a heritage market class, we will gladly participate.

 

[Cloverleaf Farm]

Oh yes, on the egg color thing...If you want a varied egg basket, you would likely need to have one dual purpose breed, plus some hens of other breeds to mix it up a bit. For example, if you choose the Delawares, adding in a few Welsummers, Marans, and Ameraucanas, would give you what you're liking for in your egg basket.