Organic and Economy

[dancingbear]

Quote:
That's not correct. Under the National Organic Program if you gross less than $5000 a year from your products you are allowed to market them as "Organic". You don't have to be certified and can't use the "USDA Certified Organic" label. You are expected to follow the NOP standards to use the term "Organic" though.

Really?! Cool, I didn't know that! I'd just always heard you have to be certified to use the term "organic" at all. At the local health food stores, (I use the term local loosely. The nearest one to me is about 75 miles away) they have signs in the produce dept. that specify what they mean by organic, and locally grown, and a third term, that I've gone blank on at the moment. They state that organic means the grower has organic certification, locally grown is non-certified but usually chemical free, mostly heirloom varieties, and so on.

I'd just thought I was SOL unless I either get the OC or the NG certification. I might do the NG at some point. Especially if I do become able to produce my own feed later, or find an affordable source of organic feed.

Thanks for the info, I greatly appreciate it!

 

[Bossroo]

What does the term "organic" mean to you?

 

[Harp Turkey Ranch]

The term "Certified Organic" is sooo misleading. Most of our customers come out and tell us they would rather have our Natural birds then an "Certified Organic" bird. "Certified Organic" is just about a joke anymore, to the consumers that know better, if you don't just read the Organic Standards and you will. " USDA Organic is not accepted as a legitimate form of certification in other countries (US Farmers now need to have their food certified by European or Japanese accredited certification agencies to sell in those markets due to concern over the legitimacy of the USDA Organic label) "
Diverse crops mean significant record-keeping burdens, as each crop requires a paper-trail from purchase of seed to sale of every pound of produce. Mounds of paperwork, plus high certification fees, make it unlikely if not impossible for many small farms to become certified organic. Some of the nations best organic farmers are ironically no longer able to call themselves "organic" anymore!

Organic means to us that the item has been grown on natural land, no pesticides,hormones,drugs GMO's or additives. The item is raised outside with shelter. Humanely treated,raised,and harvested.

 

[Brunty_Farms]

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I think you know my opinion on it.

What does it mean to you? You started this thread let me here your opinion.....

 

[willheveland]

I had heard that you couldn't have treated lumber on your property if you wanted to be considered "organic".How about an old barn with lead paint?

Don't get me wrong,to each is own.I'm not knocking anybody that wants to buy organic.I just think it's a joke.Too many people are taking advantage of people with this concept.

I know some people who raise organic poultry,beef and cows milk.While talking with them at their home, I commented on the chickens running loose around the house and barn.They told me they had to round them up soon because they were about to get re-certified and couldn't have the chickens running through the barn like they were.Nice people but I would think that to be honestly organic,it would have to be year round,not just before inspection.I'm sure many are honest but,many aren't.
Going green is mostly about the green($$$$). If you feel comfortable buying organic,so be it. Will

 

[jtownchickens]

Will,
You have me confused about the chickens running loose? Our farm is certified organic, if our cattle are in the pasture they are still organic. I guess the people you speak of were only ceritfied in some areas?
It seems to me from reading this thread the people doing the most complaining about organic, don't want to spend the money to get cert. , can't or won't keep it up, or just want to take the easy route. I can't say for anybody else that is cert. but it's not all about the green. For us it's a lable of pride, we welcome the inspectors to visit and check anytime they want.

 

[Mac in Wisco]

Quote:
As I said earlier, farming is about making a profit. Don't point the finger at the other guy for making another dollar. Consumers have been asking for more natural products for years. They have become concerned about the amount of pesticides and other residues in their food. They have become concerned about animal welfare. They are willing to pay a premium for such food and farmers have stepped forward to provide it. Certain farmers lobbied the USDA to provide certification standards to ensure certain expectations were met and provide a means for the consumer to distinguish these products. While there are some that have a certain level of disregard for the rules, especially in animal rights issues (issues which are very subjective), I feel the basic program is sound.

This whole "more organic than though" argument is needless. "My value added product has more value added than your value added product". "My hens have 0.2 more square feet per hen than your hens, so your methods suck". "I do it this way, and because it involves much more labor, I am holier than though". "You can put 2,500 hens in a barn and call it organic, but I'd draw the line at sticking 3,000 in a barn, because that's a lot of hens". "Hard working family farms can be organic, but anything involving a corporation cannot." What the heck?

 

[Brunty_Farms]

It seems to me from reading this thread the people doing the most complaining about organic, don't want to spend the money to get cert. , can't or won't keep it up, or just want to take the easy route. I can't say for anybody else that is cert. but it's not all about the green. For us it's a lable of pride, we welcome the inspectors to visit and check anytime they want.

This is not true for most of us. I'm not going to say I do more work than anybody else here but pasture raised farming is very intensive. It requires a lot of work and a lot of dedication to keep things in order. Our customers are our inspectors hands down, and they do a better job than any bureaucrat in a white suit. So I guess you can say we welcome our insepctors on a daily basis, not just when it's convienent for us. Everything has to be perfect 24/7 because it could be 9:00 in the morning when a customer stops by for eggs and they may want to see the operation. One thing that is out of place such as a dead bird, spilt feed, an empy waterer, or trash lying around can influence the decision of a potential customer. Everything on my farm has the potential to influence a customer, to the rocks in the driveway to the landscaping around the house. The work never ends, and the customers never stop judging. That kind of hard work you can't put a lable on, there is no certification for having an open policy and doing things right. Trust me the last thing I'm worried about when I go to bed at night is not wether or not my chickens have organic feed.

It's a lot less work to tend to 3,000 birds in one pen then it is to tend to 3,000 birds in 30 pens. Imagine moving 30 pens three, sometimes four times a day. Feeding, watering, and caring for 30 pens is a chore. I think anyone here that raises pastured chickens understands and knows the labor that is involved in managing the pasture, birds, and whole procedure. My hats off to those who do it with multiple species, I only do it with poultry. So please don't judge and assume that we are lazy and ignorant because of the lack of need for a certain lable to be put on our egg cartons. Financially I would not want to burden my customers in paying an extra $0.75 / dozen for a lable that has multiple meanings to the USDA.

This whole "more organic than though" argument is needless. "My value added product has more value added than your value added product". "My hens have 0.2 more square feet per hen than your hens, so your methods suck". "I do it this way, and because it involves much more labor, I am holier than though". "You can put 2,500 hens in a barn and call it organic, but I'd draw the line at sticking 3,000 in a barn, because that's a lot of hens".

I don't understand this paragraph? I'm not saying that mine or better than yours... in fact I'm not even comparing my birds to yours. I'm comparing mine to the companies out their that take advantage of hard working people like yourself. As far as I'm concerend we are both doing for the better good...

"Hard working family farms can be organic, but anything involving a corporation cannot." What the heck?

That's not what I said.... Corporations that take advantage of the term organic is a major issure that the USDA needs to address. I understand that you need to make a profit, you think I do this for giggles? No, I need a profit too or my whole idea of supporting our community is nothing but false hope.

This is what I mean, No density is set. There is no maximum amount of birds that a producer can have in a barn. The amount of outdoor living space is not a set standard. Under these regulations a producer can build a 20x20 area outside on both ends of his barn and house 30,000 layers in any size barn he/she wishes? This is exactly what I mean as a slap on the face to consumers? The USDA treats consumers like we're idiots.... How can the farms below be allowed to have the same lables "100% USDA Organic Certified" The insert below is straight from the USDA website.

Animals must have access to the outdoors, shade, exercise areas, fresh air, and direct sunlight suitable to their species and stage of production, but minimum levels of access have not been set. For poultry, indoor confinement must be temporary and justified due to weather, stage of production, health and safety of animal, and risks to soil or water quality. Growers are not allowed to cage organic poultry. Specific rules do not apply to stocking density or flock size.

ALL of these farms fit fit into a USDA standard for organic poultry. So where is the line drawn? Organics probably the biggest joke that the USDA has going for them right now. How are the living conditions healthy for the birds in the first two pictures? Set feed aside.... just living conditions. It goes to show me that it's just a lable, and the sad thing is the lables themselves according to the USDA have about 500 meanings as well. None of which make any sense what so ever. If your organic... you should be organic... not 70% organic.... not 95% organic.... THEY SHOULD BE 100% organic... Who makes these stupid laws anyhow???

The labeling requirements under the national standards apply to raw, fresh, and processed products that contain organic ingredients and are based on the percentage of organic ingredients in a product. Agricultural products labeled “100-percent organic” must contain (excluding water and salt) only organically produced ingredients. Products labeled “organic” must consist of at least 95-percent organically produced ingredients. Products labeled “made with organic ingredients” must contain at least 70-percent organic ingredients. Products with less than 70-percent organic ingredients cannot use the term organic anywhere on the principal display panel but may identify the specific ingredients that are organically produced on the ingredients statement on the information panel. The USDA organic seal— the words “USDA organic” inside a circle—may be used on agricultural products that are “100-percent organic” or “organic.” A civil penalty of up to $10,000 per violation can be levied on any person who knowingly sells or labels as organic a product that is not produced and handled in accordance with the regulations.

Honestly this is my issue... How can I support an industry that is clueless on what good quality food really is? I give my poultry the adequate space, fresh pasture, very strict feed requirements, and sufficient housing.... The only inspector that really counts are the ones that are consuming the eggs.​

 

[willheveland]

Jeff, all I can say Is WOW.Those first two pictures are unbelieveable.Can you amagine the ammonia levels in there. Will

 

[dancingbear]

So, Brunty, it sounds like your real issue is with the legal absurdities that have been put into place, and the difficulty of identifying which operations truly keep within the original spirit and practice of organic precepts.

I have a problem with that as well, but I don't think it justifies calling the entire organic/naturally grown/raised movement a joke. There are, as has been pointed out, by yourself as well as others, too many honest, hard working people ding the best they can to produce clean, healthy, really organic/naturally grown products, to paint them all with the same brush as those who follow only the ridiculous legal requirements and not a whit more.

There are always some, in any endeavor/practice/ belief system/trade or whatever, whose unworthy actions make the entire group look bad. This happens in all professions, religions, political groups, clubs, and just about any group of people beyond a handful of folks, and sometimes with them too.

Wouldn't it be better to help identify the real culprits and point them out, than to disparage the innocent along with the guilty?