Oriental Gamefowl Thread!
- Thread starter Gresh
- Start date
fine fowl saladin!!!
gallo4319
Songster
- Jun 2, 2010
- 750
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- 185
Hey! What are you guys doing here? Ha ha. Im telling. Ha ha. JK. Be nice Sal. I hardly get on here anymore cuz this site does'nt get along with my PC. Takes forever to pull a page. Good looking birds. Gallo, you always have badout looking chickens, dude.
Good looking fowl Saladin. Like all your fowl he looks healthy, fit, strong and is great representative of the old American Shamo lines. I do believe that we may both be a little bias. I admire you for preserving the old lines. If one thinks for a second. Where would the poultry world be if it weren’t for diehard preservationist like you? I believe in the end, as poultry folk’s, if we are happy with what we keep that is all that truly matters!
I am not an expert by any means on Shamo but I have enjoyed doing my research, reading, and asking questions from experts domestic and international regarding the Shamo. I hope I do not offend anyone or their fowl. In my opinion, no one's fowl is perfect and all fowl need improvement in some area. I would just like to share a few things that I have learned thru those communications, my readings, and personal researched on the Shamo.
As, Gallorojo pointed out, there are a range of forms, sizes, types and styles of the Shamo in Japan. I have read the term “SHAMO” defined as “Fighter”. With poultry “SHAMO TORINIKU “Fighting Gamefowl” . As with most Japanese practices whether it’s Martial Arts, Horticulture or Shamo breeding (I now have experience in all three) there are understood standards, if not expectations for each discipline. Equally important is each breeder’s artistic interpretation is respected, so long as the understood elements are met. I have included an image to help illustrate my point on some of Japan Shamo variety.
Japanese Shamo demographic Map:
I have no doubt that the original line of Mr. Ashby’s Shamo were at one time imported from Japan. But I would also concur with Horst Schmudde (Oriental Gamefowl, 2005) to paraphrase that the old imported US Shamo lines have been “freshen up” with other Oriental blood to maintain vigor, vitality and ultimately preserve a limited, valuable and beautiful resource.
I use to just chalk up most of the US Shamo lines as Asil crosses to explain their different appearance. What I later came to learn is that, there are a class of Shamo in Japan that might look something like the old US Shamo lines I have seen in photos. That class is called “Otoshi Shamo or Ai Shamo” which is known to be a mix breed but of strong Shamo influence and very game. These hybrids were more common and accessible type of pit game Shamo to the general public, and specifically for exporting. I have read that many were used in the the creation of the Satsuma, Minohiki and Hinai. The more vertical stationed scant feathered Shamo with distinct wing carriage, were seen as National Treasures, highly revered and some lines considered family heirlooms, and were far less accessible to the general public let alone outsiders.
It’s hard to say with out photos of the original imports but it’s plausible, in my mind, that the Otoshi was originally imported to the US versus a Shamo, Chu or O Shamo. The birds I have seen today carrying old blood, it seems very likely since they do not carry the distinct features we see today of the Chu and O Shamo. Heck, it would have made the crossing to Asil an easier and logical blend too. Again, it’s difficult to say with out photos of the originals but we can all agree that they do not look like the Chu or O Shamo of Japan
A few consistent elements of Japans highly valued national treasure, the pure sporting Shamo, regardless of height or weight, is high (almost vertical) station, protruding thigh joints, flat drooping back and tail at the same angle, distinct strong wing carriage (whether up, out or both but not rounded like Asil or Ganoi), and a long straight thick neck. These examples can be seen today at Japans Yasuda and Tosa tournaments.
If you look at the pure Shamo, not the Yakido, Ai or Otoshi, today in Japan, UK, Brazil and America, whether for the show cage or show “ring” they look less like Thais, Ganoi or Asils and exemplify the Shamo’s distinctive features described above.
UK Shamo:
Shamo Crosses:
I am not an expert by any means on Shamo but I have enjoyed doing my research, reading, and asking questions from experts domestic and international regarding the Shamo. I hope I do not offend anyone or their fowl. In my opinion, no one's fowl is perfect and all fowl need improvement in some area. I would just like to share a few things that I have learned thru those communications, my readings, and personal researched on the Shamo.
As, Gallorojo pointed out, there are a range of forms, sizes, types and styles of the Shamo in Japan. I have read the term “SHAMO” defined as “Fighter”. With poultry “SHAMO TORINIKU “Fighting Gamefowl” . As with most Japanese practices whether it’s Martial Arts, Horticulture or Shamo breeding (I now have experience in all three) there are understood standards, if not expectations for each discipline. Equally important is each breeder’s artistic interpretation is respected, so long as the understood elements are met. I have included an image to help illustrate my point on some of Japan Shamo variety.
Japanese Shamo demographic Map:
I have no doubt that the original line of Mr. Ashby’s Shamo were at one time imported from Japan. But I would also concur with Horst Schmudde (Oriental Gamefowl, 2005) to paraphrase that the old imported US Shamo lines have been “freshen up” with other Oriental blood to maintain vigor, vitality and ultimately preserve a limited, valuable and beautiful resource.
I use to just chalk up most of the US Shamo lines as Asil crosses to explain their different appearance. What I later came to learn is that, there are a class of Shamo in Japan that might look something like the old US Shamo lines I have seen in photos. That class is called “Otoshi Shamo or Ai Shamo” which is known to be a mix breed but of strong Shamo influence and very game. These hybrids were more common and accessible type of pit game Shamo to the general public, and specifically for exporting. I have read that many were used in the the creation of the Satsuma, Minohiki and Hinai. The more vertical stationed scant feathered Shamo with distinct wing carriage, were seen as National Treasures, highly revered and some lines considered family heirlooms, and were far less accessible to the general public let alone outsiders.
It’s hard to say with out photos of the original imports but it’s plausible, in my mind, that the Otoshi was originally imported to the US versus a Shamo, Chu or O Shamo. The birds I have seen today carrying old blood, it seems very likely since they do not carry the distinct features we see today of the Chu and O Shamo. Heck, it would have made the crossing to Asil an easier and logical blend too. Again, it’s difficult to say with out photos of the originals but we can all agree that they do not look like the Chu or O Shamo of Japan
A few consistent elements of Japans highly valued national treasure, the pure sporting Shamo, regardless of height or weight, is high (almost vertical) station, protruding thigh joints, flat drooping back and tail at the same angle, distinct strong wing carriage (whether up, out or both but not rounded like Asil or Ganoi), and a long straight thick neck. These examples can be seen today at Japans Yasuda and Tosa tournaments.
If you look at the pure Shamo, not the Yakido, Ai or Otoshi, today in Japan, UK, Brazil and America, whether for the show cage or show “ring” they look less like Thais, Ganoi or Asils and exemplify the Shamo’s distinctive features described above.
UK Shamo:
Shamo Crosses:
Well, once again you show you can't tell one bird from another. One of the "Shamo" crosses you posted has not one drop of shamo blood in it... Books and hearsay can only tell you so much. Only experience with the birds in your hand, and I don't mean over a few months, is what allows you to understand, if you can truly accept that you don't already have all the answers.
Indeed Shamo may have come to meaning 'fighting' in Japan. However, there are lots of other sources that say the term 'Shamo' is a corruption of the word 'Siam.' I believe the latter as know one denies the fact that these birds are nothing more or less than Thais that were bred to a slightly different standard and taste.
If you will look at the birds on the map you post (found on page 76 of my good friend's Horst Schmudde's book) and the Keeling type birds, even the untrained eye should notice a marked difference in the two!
Those birds are much more like the Earl Ashby strain of Shamo that ended up on Manuel Reynolds' yard! Why because a heavy weight boxer does not stand straight up to box! He bends slightly forward.
I'm not saying the Keeling birds aren't impressive; they most certainly are. I'm just saying the old type, imo, represents what was used in Japan and in America: common sense dictates it.
As to the mixing in America; certainly it happened. However, there are still men alive who saw those original birds and who kept them. They will tell you what those first birds looked like..... and it wasn't like the Keeling birds. As a matter of fact, one of those men from VA after seeing the Keeling birds and getting use to them no longer even calls the MR birds 'Shamo' because they are so different. That is where I differ completely with him.
If you will look at the birds on the map you post (found on page 76 of my good friend's Horst Schmudde's book) and the Keeling type birds, even the untrained eye should notice a marked difference in the two!
Those birds are much more like the Earl Ashby strain of Shamo that ended up on Manuel Reynolds' yard! Why because a heavy weight boxer does not stand straight up to box! He bends slightly forward.
I'm not saying the Keeling birds aren't impressive; they most certainly are. I'm just saying the old type, imo, represents what was used in Japan and in America: common sense dictates it.
As to the mixing in America; certainly it happened. However, there are still men alive who saw those original birds and who kept them. They will tell you what those first birds looked like..... and it wasn't like the Keeling birds. As a matter of fact, one of those men from VA after seeing the Keeling birds and getting use to them no longer even calls the MR birds 'Shamo' because they are so different. That is where I differ completely with him.
By the way, from Julia Keelings book, 'The Spirit of Japanese Gamefowl,' page 9: 'The Shamo is a Japanese bird of Malayoid type, originally imported to Japan from Thailand in the seventeeth century - the name being a corruption of Siam, the old name for Thailand.'
Remember, I have all those books and more!
Remember, I have all those books and more!
Before her famed trip to Japan, Julia Keeling used and showed birds from Manuel Reynolds which had been imported into the UK! She only changed after she went to Japan. However, she was not the only one on that trip and many of the others DID NOT change their birds.
Some of the best examples of Manuel Reynolds Shamo are to be found in the UK not in the US (as only a handfull of us have his birds here).
Some of the best examples of Manuel Reynolds Shamo are to be found in the UK not in the US (as only a handfull of us have his birds here).
LOVE IT WHEN YOU GUYS DROP KNOLEDGE ON US!!!!
This noob right here apreciates it!!! i do not yet have shamo or asil but want to get a pair or trio of both breeds! and i have learned that there are many lines of each on this here thread!
THANK YOU FOR ALL THE WISDOM!!!
This noob right here apreciates it!!! i do not yet have shamo or asil but want to get a pair or trio of both breeds! and i have learned that there are many lines of each on this here thread!
THANK YOU FOR ALL THE WISDOM!!!
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