Oriental Gamefowl Thread!

[gallorojo]

I'd suggest to just do your own research as to the differences. These breeds are not as tightly standardized, or even standardized at all, as most of your typical show type chickens. You may be better off thinking of them in terms of "type", not breed, you will see a wide range of variation, a spectrum if you will, in some of these. As soon as anyone says a Ga Noi or an Asil is XYZ, somebody else will jump in and say ( probabaly correctly), that they are also ABC. All anyone can really provide are broad generalizations that will often have exceptions. Clear as mud, right?

 

[nok13]

ive asked that question here alos but no answers; my hsuband, who is thai from isaan, (fighting chickens galore) just sat with me on the net and we searched in thai to try to id our chicks and adults:

mostly what differentiates them, at least in the thai sites, are colours, combes and legs...thai prefer 'prasom' (mixes) thinking that those are stronger birds...

ours are a mix of asil, burma, vietnam and laos/thai , because to the thai, what is important is the strength and endurance of the bird and not anything else... (for fighting obvioulsly)...

up til now, i have had 22 chicks lving in my living room; yesterday i convinced my husband to move the older feathered chicks to an outside greenhouse, cause the birds were driving me nuts...
i wil up load photos of the babies... anyone know how to sex them at an early age? (he doesnt either, they just wait until the birds start showing sexual maturity )...

our birds, get rice, vegetables, layer food (here in israel there is no other food except for chick or layer), and husband takes them grazing in our lawn...

http://www.gaichon.com/punkai.html

gaichon means fighting chicken; the varieties there are listed as colour varieties and place (burma etc) even if they are nto really from burma (manymar) or khmen (campuchea), or laos or thailand (issaan); south of thailand has more malaysia ifluence on their birds...

 

[whitewolfloft]

So what I am understanding about Thai so ar is that they can have just about any type or color as long as they have strength and stamina. Anymore info on the types of oriental fowl would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

 

[gallorojo]

Ok, I will try to help some, but I can promise someone will be along shortly to contradict me, it's just the nature of these type birds. LOL..

Compared to a Shamo MOST Thai TYPICALLY are smaller, lighter, faster, and more agile. Not quite as extreme upright, and much longer, fuller tails. Otherwise they are fairly similar. I've found them to be better layers, better mothers, and more active, less prone to leg issues, than Shamo. All these difference can be subtle or non existent depending on the strain. Also more likely to be "performers" than Shamo as they are not showbirds at all.

The Ga Noi are so variable I hesitate to even describe them. Most seem to be heavier built/muscled than Shamo , with bigger, heavier shanks, and heads, and rough scales on the shanks, tend to have shorter tails, and often more upright tails, although I have seen some small lean Ga noi, and huge monsters as well. Hennies and cushion combs seem fairly common also. Not as extreme upright as Shamo, and have good reputations for "performance", more than Shamo anyhow.

The big Asil strains are more muscular than the Shamo, with thicker shanks, larger heads and powerful beaks. Not as extreme upright, and good record for "performance".

Keep in mind that the Asian Americans breeding these birds here often cross strains/breeds, as they are usually after performance first, purity second. You might buy a bird sold as a thai that is 1/4 ga noi, or vice versa. Also keep in mind that some families just keep these around for meat and don't care if they are "performers", and good luck as a beginner getting the real deal without very good connections.

Also, only the Shamo has a set standard in the USA, the rest don't.

 

[gallorojo]

A few pictures of a Thai pullet I like.

 

[whitewolfloft]

Took a few pics of my shamo this morning. Put two new hens with him he is feeling real good about himself.

 

[nok13]

too true; hubby is pure issaan thai village, we are in israel, but as u said, any thai gai shon that doesnt work for his money in either eggs or fighting, becomes food, especially in issaan... but the thais are really nuts about their birds, they spend money theyu dont have on feeding, viatmins, all sorts of elixirs for vigor, they shower them feather by feather... hubby talks with his, plays them music, watches them... dont know what will happen when they have to move to our faraway coop cause they cant stay here, they dont like being cooped up in my laying hen yard, and besides, definately will have problems with the kibbutz if i keep 20 tall chickens on the side of our apartment...

maybe we will keep a pair in the house... my kids think im nuts as it is... this is just one step further...








these are a mix of ages, from first january hatchings here in our incubator. the second group are still indoors (thai chickens dont take the cold as well, let alone the young ones), and they were mostly hen hatched but we took them up to our house becasue of weather and coop set up issues... thats lilee in the foreground, food is more intereseting to her then the chicks.

 

[nok13]

forgot to add, the roos are all black and red types, we had one white roo which is why we have some white ones, only one however has stayed white on white. the others are coming out with colour mixes. the thai pullet someone had in a post here is the colour of one of our thai pullets, however, the other hens were all black with greeny type highlights ... what is interesting is that most thais prefer white animals. black dogs become food in many areas, and black animals are culled out or not chosen if there is a choice between a light coloured animal and a black (also among poeple lighter is preferred, thats an other story) ; but among the chickens, it seems that black mixed with colours is a good thing...

http://kaichon.dooasia.com/laykow.shtml

here are some pics i photographed in 2004 in ban chiang in thailand... in a very very poor woman's hut; she worked as a servant for a rich lady in town, and lived as a sharecropper on some land in a small village a bike ride away. her husband did nothing all day but take care of his chickens. he spent his money on his game cocks and didnt have enough to buy antibiotics for his daughter who was ill with strep throat. for dinner, they slaughtered an ancient chicken especially to cook for me, so i couldnt refuse to eat it but it was the toughest bird ive ever tried to eat.

 

[SD_Paulo]

Ok, I will try to help some, but I can promise someone will be along shortly to contradict me, it's just the nature of these type birds. LOL..

Compared to a Shamo MOST Thai TYPICALLY are smaller, lighter, faster, and more agile. Not quite as extreme upright, and much longer, fuller tails. Otherwise they are fairly similar. I've found them to be better layers, better mothers, and more active, less prone to leg issues, than Shamo. All these difference can be subtle or non existent depending on the strain. Also more likely to be "performers" than Shamo as they are not showbirds at all.

The Ga Noi are so variable I hesitate to even describe them. Most seem to be heavier built/muscled than Shamo , with bigger, heavier shanks, and heads, and rough scales on the shanks, tend to have shorter tails, and often more upright tails, although I have seen some small lean Ga noi, and huge monsters as well. Hennies and cushion combs seem fairly common also. Not as extreme upright as Shamo, and have good reputations for "performance", more than Shamo anyhow.

The big Asil strains are more muscular than the Shamo, with thicker shanks, larger heads and powerful beaks. Not as extreme upright, and good record for "performance".

Keep in mind that the Asian Americans breeding these birds here often cross strains/breeds, as they are usually after performance first, purity second. You might buy a bird sold as a thai that is 1/4 ga noi, or vice versa. Also keep in mind that some families just keep these around for meat and don't care if they are "performers", and good luck as a beginner getting the real deal without very good connections.

Also, only the Shamo has a set standard in the USA, the rest don't.

GR, were you thinking i might chime in....lol

Actually, I agree with most of what GR posted and to the best of my knowledge with four breeds mention was a good starting point for reference! I would like to add, that it reads as though GR is speaking about these breeds as they are generally known or found in the states!!

I added that last statement for a couple reasons. One, because he was pretty spot on with his basic discriptions/characteristics of the breeds as found in the US. Second, from conversations with persons naturally more familiar with the breeds whether through travels, research or it being their homeland; most countries of the breeds origin definately have "standards". They may not be written down standards, as the poultry world we know does, but their birds are held to measurable and expected standards. Standards have been passed down through "hands on" experience from generation to generation and some have been written down. But like every country, and this explains some of the variation, breeds vary in quality from Excellent to Very Poor.

Written standards can be found in Thailand and Japan for their National Gamefowl. Thailand, like Japan, UK, USA, Argentina, Peru, etc have "feather type poultry shows" where the birds main objective is not fighting. This seems to be taking off in Thailand, along with Dog shows. Anyway, in each of these countries there are still breeders who breed the fowl very true to function and form.

I could not agree with you more that most Shamo in the US, are less true to function and form than Shamo raise in Japan. So your points of comparison to the Shamo are probably true if you are speaking about the common Shamo found in the States. Remember, there are folks out there with very good Japanese O Shamo and Chu Shamo lines, as discussed in previous conversation that are very different in many aspects to the old shamo lines found in the US. Thus, if speaking to true Chu or O Shamo many of your points of comparison, regarding strength, size, and performance do not apply.

In recent communication I have had with Mr Coppens, and Mrs. Keeling I learned that the Chu and O Shamo all have their unique style based, not on size, but set bloodline. Many towns are specifically know for their Shamo's style. Some lines are much more offensive styled and other lines are bred to be more defensive minded. Most, here, have never seen high level Chu Shamo or O Shamo in their full glory, one might mistaken the movement of a Chu for that of a larger and taller PHD but with Ga Noi Don type power.

But come to think of it, I dont believe I have seen a high level straight bred LHK or PHD Thai perform but I have seen their mestizo cousins move around.

 

[gallorojo]

Ha ha Paulo, I was not thinking of you in particular or you alone, I just recognize these orientals are not like Plymouth rocks. Some of our American show breeds can be defined fairly exactly without exceptions in a highly detailed way. The orientals even where standards exist abroad are often more vague than what we have in the USA. I just figure from experience that anytime someone's trying to define these birds, someone can always find an exception to the rule or some point they disagree on. Which is fine, so long as everyone takes it as a chance to learn something new.

Your additional comments were good and appreciated, I am far from an expert so I was expecting others to add in their thoughts as well, I'm surely not the last word in these things. The best thing really is to find an expert mentor and learn from them, except their opinion will probably differ from another expert . I just figure trying to define performance bred birds vs standard bred show breeds will always be challenging and possibly contentious