Pack mentality of dogs with chickens

[OrganicFarmWife]

Yes my Barr Rocks easily fly over 5 ft fencing, and they roost at 6ft. Also I had a husky clear my 4 ft fence...

 

[cafarmgirl]

I'm totally fine with the electric fence method. The two dogs we have shock collars on all the time to keep them from jumping the fence or misbehaving have learned quickly. We hardly have issues with them, but the German Shepherd somehow figures out when the collar runs out of batteries and ends up jumping anyway. The electric fence would never run out of battery so that would solve the problem.

DH is worried about the chickens getting shocked. Is that a concern?

I did see a chicken get zapped once by the hot wire when her comb touched it, she squawked and and ran off then resumed foraging. That's the only time I've actually witnessed one of them come in contact with it in the 10 years that I've used it, they seem to stay away from it. I have it on both the inside and outside of the pasture where my birds "free range", as it keeps the goats off the fence.

 

[ashleymroles]

Just something that pops out from your original post: Your 4ft tall fence. Training may keep the dogs out, but your fence might not be able to keep your chickens in (depending on breeds). A 4ft fence easily contains my Silkies and frizzles, but my normal feathered breeds can fly over 6ft tall chain link...something to consider.

Yes my Barr Rocks easily fly over 5 ft fencing, and they roost at 6ft. Also I had a husky clear my 4 ft fence...

Our yard is surrounded by a 6 ft fence so they still won't get out of the perimeter. I'm thinking 4 ft fence just for their yard which they'll only be confined to when the dogs are out. I think the hot wire would keep the dogs out and the dogs would keep the chickens in. Maybe?

 

[ashleymroles]

I did see a chicken get zapped once by the hot wire when her comb touched it, she squawked and and ran off then resumed foraging.  That's the only time I've actually witnessed one of them come in contact with it in the 10 years that I've used it, they seem to stay away from it.  I have it on both the inside and outside of the pasture where my birds "free range", as it keeps the goats off the fence. 

Awesome. This helps. I think this is our best option. Any recommendations for brands or stores?

 

[animalgrl]

Just something that pops out from your original post: Your 4ft tall fence. Training may keep the dogs out, but your fence might not be able to keep your chickens in (depending on breeds). A 4ft fence easily contains my Silkies and frizzles, but my normal feathered breeds can fly over 6ft tall chain link...something to consider.

x2. This was my first thought as well. Most chickens can go over a 4 foot fence.

 

[howfunkyisurchicken]

Our yard is surrounded by a 6 ft fence so they still won't get out of the perimeter. I'm thinking 4 ft fence just for their yard which they'll only be confined to when the dogs are out. I think the hot wire would keep the dogs out and the dogs would keep the chickens in. Maybe?

I wouldn't count on the dogs keeping the chickens in. I have visions of the dogs charging the fence, the chickens getting startled and popping over and you finding a mess. And, something I've noticed with my own chickens and dogs, eventually they get used to the dogs being there. And at some point someone goes over. Fortunately for my naughty fence hoppers, my dogs are chicken safe. But, yours are not (for now ) and may not ever be. If they were mine, I'd put a top on the run just to be on the safe side....

 

[sdm111]

Don't ever underestimate the drive of a dog. No matter how much u want them to live a happy life all buddies realize you can't change a dog's mind. Imo the best you can do is have a foolproof separation

 

[animalgrl]

I second what @sdm111 said. I had a stray chicken show up and this was before I had chickens. I sectioned off part of the yard with a 4 ft dog pen, thinking that, having seen the dogs and them charging at the dog pen, she would stay on her side of the fence. One night I came home, thought she was in her area, and let the dogs out. Luckily they wanted to relieve themselves and ran out into the yard to do their business. I looked down at the ground and there was Clucky, laying right next to the sliding glass door and the dogs were so intent on going out that they ran right past her. It was dusk and she was hunkered down for the night, so I scooped her up and ushered her into her dog crate right before the dogs came over to sniff around where she had been. Luckily they didn't see her first or that would have been the end of Clucky. After that, I made sure she was in her area before I let the dogs out, and got started on building her a covered run. If I had your situation, I'd cover my run. Especially since you will be letting the chickens out when the dogs are inside. The chickens won't know when the dogs will be out. If you corral all the chickens into the run, and then go to open the door for the dogs, a chicken who decides she wants to be back out could easily go over a 4 ft fence in that short moment and then you have a situation where your dogs could go after the chicken. I have one dog who is so high prey drive that even after months of training I could not get him to stop going after my cats and have settled for a "rotating rooms" system as I had 3 separate trainers tell me if I worked very hard, maybe, one day, he might be able to be around the cats if he is wearing a muzzle. His prey drive is so ingrained that training won't get rid of it, and I would never completely trust him around my cats, so we manage it. He has learned to ignore the chickens on the other side of the fence (which is actually a huge accomplishment for him), but if they were on the same side of the fence, all bets would be off.

 

[ashleymroles]

UPDATE:

The chickens have been outside for 4 weeks now. We decided to put up a solar powered electric fence that has successfully kept the dogs out and the chickens in. Now that the weather is nice, the dogs and the chickens are spending most of their time in the yard, and there have been no incidents AT ALL; not even a close call.

The first week or so one of the jack Russells (my baby, she follows me everywhere), would sit outside the fence just watching me with the chickens. She got shocked a couple weeks ago and no longer goes anywhere near the fence.

Since the big dogs have shock collars, we shocked them once that first day and they've paid no attention to the chickens since.

The little chihuahuas seem totally bored by them.

Overall, great success! Thanks to everyone for the great insight and advice!

 

[HnkyDnkyZZFarm]

Anybody with terrier in them is going to have a hard time leaving a prey animal alone. They are working dogs bred to tenaciously exterminate vermin and to them, chickens are vermin. In a pack, once someone has a high value treat (chicken) the pack order will kick in and they will all want that treat. You're fighting two sets of instincts, pack drive and prey drive. That's a seriously uphill fight.

You may get them to behave while supervised, but enhanced prey drive will always be there, whereas you may not. Training involves more exposure to the chickens, learning about the chickens, observing their housing and thinking about the chickens. If you have fence jumpers already - they don't respect fences as boundaries and are working to out think the shock collar - testing its limits, that isn't a good thing because if they have had a lot of interesting activity near the chickens, then that will be the first place they go when they get a chance and it's already established that boundaries are negotiable and dependent upon circumstances. You've taught them where the chickens are and they've observed that the chickens behave like prey.

What I notice with our dog is that if I am holding an animal, it is "my kill" in the dogs perception, so it would be out of line to misbehave and be seen as challenging me for my kill. No bark, no surging, no predatory behavior. If I put the same animal on the ground and step away, it's free game and the dog will behave in a predatory way towards it. Based upon this, I am of the opinion that training the dog not to eye/stalk/chase chickens by handling the chickens in front of them does no good, because the rules don't apply when you don't have direct physical control of "your prey" The dog recognizes you as the pack leader with a kill, rather than the chicken itself being off limits.

My best advice would be to watch the dogs for "eye" as that it is the first step in the predatory cycle. You'll see them focus up and get still, ears forward, Stop them at eye because once their arousal level goes up, their recall naturally goes down. Each time they get farther into the cycle, they get more comfortable and more likely to follow through to the next step. (eye/stalk/chase/bite/dissect/consume) At chase, the genie is out of the bottle. Especially if there have been other opportunities to rehearse the behavior, like fence running after the big dogs with the wheels and humans inside them. If I had it to do over, this is where I would have been more firm in boundaries with my dogs before we ever got livestock or chickens. I would have crated at all times when we were not home to try to slow the progression by avoiding unchecked fence running after cars without consequences, since no matter how often I stopped them when I was home, there were ten times or more a day that they were able to notice, come to alert and chase, even if they never caught the car and it was rehearsal for chasing things that move, solidifying the pattern. When the next step came I was caught totally off guard because I figured chase was self limiting. That's like saying that going through the drive through is okay so long as you never order anything. Yapping was the other give away. It's a high pitched excited bark. Scenting is another uh-oh sign and I actually still give corrections when I see it because I know it's the early stages of eye and arousal of the nervous system. At this point, we need to get the dog listening to commands rather than to its instincts, which are saying, what is that intriguing smell! Lets go find it!

Long story short, I would focus on the fences, get them as dog proof as you can, I would do a covered run personally, and bring all fences to 6 ft. Jumpers would be crated or indoors when you're not directly supervising and do your best to keep the two completely separate and the dogs as unaware of the chickens as possible. I would try to make the fence a visual barrier as well as a physical one and if you have the resources to do so, electricity is a great idea.

We have a goat who lost an ear and got a good story when our dog that I THOUGHT respected fences saw an opportunity and took it. The devastation to the relationship with the dog is akin to having your spouse cheat on you - maybe not that bad, but you know what I mean, the trust will never be there again - and shouldn't be. Keeping everyone safe and safe from their own impulses is #1.

Pardon the rant, but I've been there, and said the same things, right up until I got seriously surprised and realized that had I not been home when it happened, I would have lost every animal in the pens and been putting down the dogs. I can't trust them, but they are alive. We thought we had the dog who got the goat trained to leave the goats alone by giving a down command when he approached the fences and his response was fairly reliable. He is a very smart dog. He was actually observing the fence line and waiting till he could catch the goat - and me by surprise. It was close to a year out when he took his opportunity. Boy were we surprised.