Parelli Strikes Again!

[Gryphon]

Redcatcher, I'm thinking that your horses being pocket ponies means that when you trained them, IF you gave them body language to step away from you, they would. Normally you're open to them coming to you, so they're allowed in your space, but if for some reason you told them to back off or you're not in the mood or you have a headache, not now dear, ( ) then they wouldn't approach. That seems to be the same to me as letting the horses come to you by invitation only, the same as an alpha mare would only let a subordinate horse approach her as long as she's ok with it. Just because it's a very soft subtle signal and you may not even be aware of it, doesn't mean that it's not there.

I have to agree that what most people SAY are "pocket ponies" are pushy treat-muggers, and I do view the scratching of the head on you as disrespectful. Do you think they would DARE do that to a lead mare? She'd kick 'em upside the head, and they know it! They'd go to some horse below them and scratch their face all over them. (or better yet, find a nice post to destroy. ) Most of the pocket ponies I've met are actually well trained, but were allowed to push things more and more with their owner, until they were finally stepping all over them and ignoring their body language for "BACK UP ALREADY!". Saw it in action at a Clinton Andersen clinic that I got to see recently, a woman leads in a mare with "loading problems" and she was constantly nudging at her, walking around her, and blowing off any signals to stand still and behave, because she knew she could get away with it. In very short order, (after some dramatic temper tantrums on her part for being told "no, you CAN'T act like a butthead) she was quietly standing with an ear cocked on the person holding the lead. A very different animal from the pocket pony baby that was "scared" of the trailer.

I also think that the Parellies are treated as demigods by their followers, which is dangerous. What might work for Pat, works because he has the timing down and knows when to respond/ease up. Your average person can't even tell when a horse is ignoring them, and telling those people "you too can be a trainer if you just buy our dvds!" is so not a good thing.

 

[Aschenfire]

I have a short statement about the Parellis' ... snake oil salesmen. I have shown horses of all disciplines all my life, and had never seen anyone put the rope flapping/jumping jacks doing garbage into action until a girl I know here did it with her untrained Arabian gelding. She swore by this insane method. What it accomplishes to jump up and down, flail a rope around a horse, or go running up to them full steam ...is beyond me. I asked her once, and she said she'd seen "western riders" do this. Yes... if you calf rope or contest, you might have need to run up to your horse. Otherwise, you'd not do it... unless he was on fire. >.<

 

[therapydoglady]

Well put, WalkingWolf1! I, too am a big Clinton Anderson fan, but I use some John and Josh Lyons, and I use a lot of plain old dog training, too. The last one I used a clicker and treats, just to see. She caught on 10 times faster, and it was much easier to train her. I worked with the little girl who was going to adopt her, and taught her how to use the clicker. The reason I chose to do this was that she had and eye injury and was blind on the left side, so, the clicker helped her know we were there. It also helped when we were in the saddle, as we "conditioned" her to know that a short click on that side meant to expect someone coming up on that side whether afoot or on horseback. It worked beautifully! This 14 year old girl uses this mare for trail riding, and doesn't mind the little bit of "extra effort." And even though we used treats, this mare knows not to be pushy. She is very patient and waits. I'm porud of that one.

The new one I just rescued and just started has a completely different demeanor, and so I will use the clicker, but no treats. He's still so hungry, I'm afraod I would create a MONSTER!

 

[WalkingWolf1]

The last one I used a clicker and treats, just to see. She caught on 10 times faster, and it was much easier to train her. I worked with the little girl who was going to adopt her, and taught her how to use the clicker. The reason I chose to do this was that she had and eye injury and was blind on the left side, so, the clicker helped her know we were there. It also helped when we were in the saddle, as we "conditioned" her to know that a short click on that side meant to expect someone coming up on that side whether afoot or on horseback. It worked beautifully! This 14 year old girl uses this mare for trail riding, and doesn't mind the little bit of "extra effort." And even though we used treats, this mare knows not to be pushy. She is very patient and waits. I'm proud of that one.

That sounds like quite the success story. I have seen clicker training in action and the speed in which it takes affect is impressive. As in Pavlov's experiments, one of the quickest ways to the inside of an animals head is through their stomach (I think the same is said about us men sometimes)

 

[therapydoglady]

Ya think?

 

[therapydoglady]

I think the problem a lot of people have with their horses is their own faults. They get lazy. When they have trained to the point where they are satisfied with their horses, they quit. Being a good horse custodian is like being in a good marriage. You have to be mindful of your commitment EVERY DAY, and work on it EVERY DAY. My horses will all go in their perspective stalls if I just open the gates and let them in. However, I kiss to them, call them by name and pat my chest, the signal for them to come to me. Then I ask them to put their head down to receive their halter and I put each one in their own pen. Takes maybe two minutes extra. BUT it reinforces, EVERY DAY that I am in charge. In the stalls, while I am brushing out burrs or what have you, I touch a hip to move them over, pat a leg for them to lift that foot, etc. We use our training every day, whether it is needed or not. If you don't, you'll lose it for sure. If they don't have to wonder where the boundaries are today, they won't forget where they are next week.

Extra time? You bet. It probably takes me three times longer to put my horses to bed every night than my neighbor. But I think we are all the happier for it. And when we go riding together, I have to wait on him while he's trying to get a head stall on a horse that won't allow him to touch ears, and sits down when a blanket and saddle are thrown over his back! Weekend horsemanship doesn't work any better than a weekend marriage does.

 

[Redcatcher]

I disagree with your assessment once again. As previously stated, I'm no Parelli fan and quickly grew tired of their perpetual predator/prey mantra but invading your space IS a sign of disrespect or dominance and that is not a Parelli-ism but simply a truth used by the Parellis. Because you don't see it that way and allow it doesn't mean it is not so. Your horses may not even see it as such but it is what I call "testing the water". Everyone's understanding of herd dynamics will vary with significant differences within the 80/20 bell curve. I don't think your position, nor the Parellis, is outside of the 80%. The two positions are simply different. I question your understanding of herd dynamics as I may guess you question my own. I position myself as both the stallion and lead mare within my herd. As the stallion I will protect my herd from predation and they depend on me for that. As the lead mare they are to do what I tell them without question. Both my life and theirs will depend on it. A lead mare will not take any "flack" from one of her rank and file. They will come up when she allows it. Not sure to what extent you have read up on how horses communicate but Monty Roberts, among others, talks about Equus -- the language of how horses communicate. I'm not a big Monty Roberts fan but do find this aspect fascinating and have spent considerable time studying it. I guess I'm more of a Clinton Anderson mindset than a Monty Roberts to give some perspective. I do all I can to communicate in the horses natural language and I think we both enjoy the interaction much more. I also do not follow a rigid training discipline but rather bits and pieces from the many different methods I have observed over the years. It's not to say I'm a hard ***** and do not/will not form a close bond with my animals. In contrast I dearly love my horses, and like my own children, they are most content and balanced when they have a healthy respect for the boundaries that are maintained within their lives. Without the proper boundaries, they will continue to push the edges in search of those limitations. It does appear this will be a point we will have to agree to disagree (or not) as it seems you are pretty dug in on your position and I in mine. I just thought for clarity I would provide a bit of where my philosophy originates.

Let me clarify. I pay VERY close attention to my horses' body language. As they enter (or appear as if they might enter) my personal space, they get an instant attitude check. If they pass, they may enter freely. If not, they are stopped dead in their tracks. The same goes for those horses that change their attitude after they have entered my space (those are typically alpha horses). The Parellis lead people to assume that any horse that enters a human's personal space is being disrespectful and aggressive. I would agree only if the horse had been conditioned NOT to enter a human's personal space. But the Parellis are referring to basic horse behavior. I won't disagree that there could be a potential for aggression when a horse invades a human's personal space but it's not in itself a sign. My horses don't push their limitations with me since they know it's a waste of time and effort. I must be doing something right because I've never been severely injured by a horse. The worst was a bad bruise when a big colt accidentally stepped on my foot and I was kicked (sucker punched) by a pony in the thigh. That's about it.

 

[therapydoglady]

Redcatcher: I think Gryphon may be right in that we all know our horses, how they behave, what their (and our) limitations are, and that we just have different perceptions of what the term "pocket horses" means. Mine will come up to me, and I hug them, around the nose or neck, daily. I pet them and touch them from end to end. Actually, several times a day. It goes without saying that I am very affectionate to my horses, and they with me. But I make the first move, first advance. Never them. When I invite them in, then and only then, can they come into my space. On the other hand, I greatly respect how they are feeling every day. I have one mare that is extremely moody when she's in season...she will tolerate my intrusion into her space at that time simply because she knows I am the boss, but how crass of me to force her? I think we all,( since we are all on this site discussing our beloved eequine) know our horses, love and respect them. We just all say it and show it in different ways.

 

[EweSheep]

As long I've known Parelli methods being around, I would not use their method. I've got words to say about that kind of training but not in this family forum.

However people do have better luck with Lyons training than Parelli's.

 

[ImperialAcres]

I do not like the Parelli's, or their methods. The Parelli's are dangerous. Their methods produce dangerous horses. Most of the people who follow them don't know anything about horses, which makes them dangerous. Their "games" may have some use... but the way they are used is not for the most part. They say they aim to create a partnership... but all they do is create a spoiled, bratty, pushy, overbearing, and potentially dangerous horse, who has no respect for humans. I've seen videos of both the Parelli's "working" with horses... in ways that I would consider not advisable, at the least. From Pat being overly aggressive to confused horses, to Linda's failed attempt to lunge a half blind mare (who was obviously scared, and had no idea what was going on- she couldn't see Linda, and Linda got increasingly aggressive with the mare for no more reason than getting angry she wasn't behaving in the exact manner Linda wanted- duh... she can't see you!). They seem to resort to forcing, and beating to get the desired results with horses who are clearly confused about what is being asked of them. I used to board with someone who followed Parelli... she ended up getting ribs and a vertebrae broken by one of her horses when turning the mare out. She also spent several hours forcing a colt to load in a trailer. She considered this training him to load. He ended up exhausted, soaked in sweat, and flat out on the ground, never did get in the trailer. Same colt was dangerous on the ground. Pushy, overbearing, and very insistent that his way is the way things were done. After he almost kicked me in the head while I was feeding, he learned pretty darn quick that I am NOT his slave, and I WILL smack his butt with a whip if he acts like a moron. Sorry, seen way too much to consider what the Parelli's teach "training".

I may "only" have minis, but they are treated like horses. I am the boss mare of my herd, and all of them know it. I don't only use body language to let them know what I want, I also use my voice. Horses are very effective at communicating... as long as you listen, and pay attention. I also take care of the stallions duties... and they know that, too. They know it well enough that the herd will run to me if something scares them, and my stallion will hide behind me when the mares scare him (he's young, and a bit of a wuss). While I can't (and don't- on purpose anyway) ride my minis, they do have jobs. They are pets, therapy animals, ambassadors to kids, show horses, and when my knee recovers enough to train them to drive, they will be driving horses.

Minis tend to be looked at different than big horses... what is considered pushy in big horses is usually considered "desirable" in minis, simply because they are small, and it's seen as being super friendly. This has resulted in that "wonderful" viewpoint so many have regarding minis, and the reason why so many minis act insane. They aren't dogs, and treating them like dogs drives them insane, eventually. Yes, it is much easier to force minis to do what you want, thereby skipping the training process completely. It's why minis have such a bad reputation as mannerless monsters. There's also the ones who have been with kids most of their lives, and are either confused as all get out, or turned mean from being teased, poked, prodded, and jerked around. I've met more than one mini who had turned really mean from the treatment that people have dealt out. I've also met more than one that had been driven insane, or are terrified of people... these things will never go away. Those horses will always be damaged, and the Parelli methods are a good way to get the same result. The horses end up so confused, and thinking they have the right to run over people, that a good majority of them end up ruined beyond the ability of retraining, or dead because they were taught to be dangerous. In the hands of a competant horseperson, the methods probably won't result in a ruined horse, but the vast majority of people using them really don't know much, if anything, about horses. And in the end, that is the biggest problem with the Parelli's.