Peafowl Genetics for Dummies (in other words us)

[AugeredIn]

No. 75% white and 25% split to white.

 

[MinxFox]

Alright that isn't too bad. Thank you!

 

[Rosa moschata]

No, you were right. Split to White X White = 50% White and 50% split to White. It's the same as breeding any other split with a visual for the same non-sex-linked mutation.

 

[Yoda]

Again, if there's no standardization of terms, people will remain confused.

I'm sure you've all seen that "Pied X Pied = 25% Dark Pied, 50% Pied, 25% White" posted on various websites. Well, the "Dark Pied" in that equation is a pea with two copies of the Pied gene, which would NOT look like a normal IB with a tiny white spot on the throat. A pea that looked like that would be split to Pied (only one copy of the Pied gene), or possibly split to White (only one copy of the White gene) but more likely the former.

Peas with two copies of Pied (i.e. Dark Pied) will have a larger amount of white on the throat, and larger areas of white on the wings -- but no white patches on the back or in the tail or in other non-symmetrical areas. Dark Pied breeds true, just like White does. What is called "Pied" is a cross between White and Dark Pied, and this cross doesn't breed true -- it gives the percentages I previously mentioned.

I understand it gets confusing because people aren't consistent with using terms, and I also understand that some of what I say will be counter to what you were told by breeders or other peafowl people, but I'm trying to organize what I see into a way that makes sense genetically. For example, the middle pic on the page linked here is captioned as being a Blackshoulder Pied peacock. If we accept that the Pied phenotype results from a pea having one copy of Pied and one copy of White (which fits the oft-quoted equation I mentioned at the beginning of my post), then we should see the effects of both mutations -- white on front throat, white on wings, white on belly (from Pied), and patches of white in random areas of the body, neck and tail (from White). But the peacock in the photo has a rather neat and symmetrical presentation of white -- just on the throat and wings and belly, with no random white patches elsewhere. That phenotype results from having two copies of Pied and no copies of White -- thus the peacock is Dark Pied. THOSE are the birds which, when bred with White peas, will produce 100% Pied offspring. If you are told that Dark Pied birds have just a white feather or two, you're looking for split to Pied, or split to White, peas. Using those with a White will NOT result in 100% Pied offspring.

Legg's peafowl and deerman do not agree with your statemant, they say:
India Blue Pied to India Blue Pied produce 25% White, 50% India Blue Pied
and 25% India Blue Dark Pied. These Dark Pied birds are solid colored with White throat latches and or White flights.

deerman says:
dark pied and birds split white , will look alike only knowing their background will you know, unless you breed them.

Now these guys have been breeding birds longer then some of us been alive and your stating that they are wrong? Now Deerman knew a lot about genetics, but unfortunately he is no longer here to talk about it.

 

[Yoda]

I am not disputing your results but I see no possible combination of genes in those two birds that could produce all of those combinations. To get whites each bird would have to carry white. To get pieds at least one would also have to carry pied. That means one would have to BE pied and thus would be visually pied. To get silver pied, since one already has to be pied we per the previous sentence, both would have to carry pied, white and we and thus would be visual.

What am I missing?

The only eggs that I had that were fertile in 2011 were from Deerman's charcoal pair here are some of the babies in 2012 (missing from picture is anothe pied male and a pied hen) They ranged from white to pied to w/e to IB to charcoal

Last year I hatched out this little wonder, so in order to get charcoal chick do I need a split to charcoal hen? To have the chick look like this what does the parents have to look like?:

Here's another silver pied that also hatched from 2013 hatch from the charcoal pair



Unfortunately there was an accident, my grandmother who is 94 was looking into the tub that I kept the chicks in after they outgrew the brooder and she feel and grabed the tub and I lost some of the babies that were in it and the silver pieds were among those lost

Deerman told me when he gave me the charcoals that I will have a colorful hatch. He then told me that the male was a charcoal w/e split to silver pied and the hen was Ib split to charcoal split to pied. That is all I know and those are some of what hatched from the charcoal pen - can't get confused it is the only "C" pen I have.

 

[DylansMom]

I would reserve the right to say there is a difference between a pied white eye bird and a silver pied bird, but yes. If your boy produced an all white eye offspring he must have a white eye gene.

Okay, I have read some of the Silver Pied debate and I am still fairly certain that the offspring I mentioned would qualify as Silver Pied not Pied White Eye, but how do you know for sure? Is the silvering of the colored plumage good enough, or are there other factors. I should have said that the pairing with the silver hen has produced many silver offspring(at least I thought them silver, but most were sold early, so I never saw adult plumage on them) the 2 that I kept back are 5 years now. Here are pics of the male from last spring (he has white mixed in with the barring on all those wing feathers and the gold feathers on his back also have a lot of white streaking on them)



, unfortunately the only decent pic I have of his sister is from about 4 months of age, but you can still see her silvered back compared to her dark pied sister(they are the 2 at the bottom of pic 3). Looking at these can you tell if they are indeed silver pied or might they still be pied WE?


Also, If you have a white gene do you also automatically have the gene for WE, I thought I had read somewhere that all whites also carry the WE? Is this true? Or can you have a white that will not pass on a gene for WE? If a white is crossed with say a pied bird that is not carrying any copies of WE, can you get offspring who also have no copies of WE or will all of them automatically get a single copy from the white parent?

 

[Rosa moschata]

Legg's peafowl and deerman do not agree with your statemant, they say:
India Blue Pied to India Blue Pied produce 25% White, 50% India Blue Pied
and 25% India Blue Dark Pied. These Dark Pied birds are solid colored with White throat latches and or White flights.

deerman says:
dark pied and birds split white , will look alike only knowing their background will you know, unless you breed them.

Now these guys have been breeding birds longer then some of us been alive and your stating that they are wrong? Now Deerman knew a lot about genetics, but unfortunately he is no longer here to talk about it.

Both have been wrong when I first posted about combining colors -- claiming it's impossible -- and about how Peach came about, so the possibility for them to be wrong again exists. In other posts, Deerman said that split to Pied and split to White were the birds you couldn't tell apart -- not the ones homozygous for Pied.

And I can also be wrong. However, when I look at pictures of "Pied" peafowl from many sources on the internet, I keep seeing one type of presentation that seems rather consistent among some -- big throat patch, white wings, some white on the belly, and no white in random asymmetrical patches. The Dark Pied is described as having a white throat and some white on the wings. I took this to mean that birds split to Pied show very tiny white throat patches and perhaps a white feather or two on the wings, while birds homozygous for Pied have larger amounts of white in these areas (but not across the back or in the tail). It suggests that this symmetrical pattern of white found almost identically among different birds is the result of an identical genotype. The behavior of the incompletely dominant White mutation being random in its "erasing" of pigment would interfere with this consistent appearance, so it doesn't seem likely that the mutation is present among those birds.

If others claim that birds homozygous for Pied are the ones with the tiny amount of white on the throat and wings, then perhaps there are two versions of the Pied gene -- one more pronounced in expression than the other. This may account for differences between "Loud Pied" and "Regular Pied" -- the former have a copy of the "stronger" Pied and a copy of White, while the latter have a copy of the "weaker" Pied and a copy of White. The test would be looking at offspring from one of the birds I'm calling "Dark Pied" and assume to be homozygous for Pied (whether it's the one and only version, or a possible "stronger" version) bred with a White. If all the offspring come out Pied, then we know that the birds I call "Dark Pied" are homozygous for Pied. If any White offspring result, then we know that I was incorrect. If Zazouse hatches eggs from her White hens paired with what I'm calling a "Dark Pied" peacock, we'll find out.

 

[zazouse]

Is the random patch of white suppose to be a certain size? my pieds looking birds all have white patches on their leggs , they have white plumage under their tail and some have small white feather patches on their backs.
I just am not sure how to list my birds for sale now, i see a pied coloring in my birds but it is possible my birds are not pieds cause they only have one pied gene

 

[AugeredIn]

No, you were right. Split to White X White = 50% White and 50% split to White. It's the same as breeding any other split with a visual for the same non-sex-linked mutation.

Minx, Rosa is right. I was wrong. Too much cold medicine.

 

[AugeredIn]

The only eggs that I had that were fertile in 2011 were from Deerman's charcoal pair here are some of the babies in 2012 (missing from picture is anothe pied male and a pied hen) They ranged from white to pied to w/e to IB to charcoal

Last year I hatched out this little wonder, so in order to get charcoal chick do I need a split to charcoal hen? To have the chick look like this what does the parents have to look like?:

Here's another silver pied that also hatched from 2013 hatch from the charcoal pair



Unfortunately there was an accident, my grandmother who is 94 was looking into the tub that I kept the chicks in after they outgrew the brooder and she feel and grabed the tub and I lost some of the babies that were in it and the silver pieds were among those lost

Deerman told me when he gave me the charcoals that I will have a colorful hatch. He then told me that the male was a charcoal w/e split to silver pied and the hen was Ib split to charcoal split to pied. That is all I know and those are some of what hatched from the charcoal pen - can't get confused it is the only "C" pen I have.

Well, I absolutely agree that that is a silver pied or pied white eye bird but everything I have learned would require that one or both birds be visual for white. Maybe I am not seeing something on the photos I was looking at.