Peafowl Genetics for Dummies (in other words us)

[Rosa moschata]

Again, if there's no standardization of terms, people will remain confused.

I'm sure you've all seen that "Pied X Pied = 25% Dark Pied, 50% Pied, 25% White" posted on various websites. Well, the "Dark Pied" in that equation is a pea with two copies of the Pied gene, which would NOT look like a normal IB with a tiny white spot on the throat. A pea that looked like that would be split to Pied (only one copy of the Pied gene), or possibly split to White (only one copy of the White gene) but more likely the former.

Peas with two copies of Pied (i.e. Dark Pied) will have a larger amount of white on the throat, and larger areas of white on the wings -- but no white patches on the back or in the tail or in other non-symmetrical areas. Dark Pied breeds true, just like White does. What is called "Pied" is a cross between White and Dark Pied, and this cross doesn't breed true -- it gives the percentages I previously mentioned.

I understand it gets confusing because people aren't consistent with using terms, and I also understand that some of what I say will be counter to what you were told by breeders or other peafowl people, but I'm trying to organize what I see into a way that makes sense genetically. For example, the middle pic on the page linked here is captioned as being a Blackshoulder Pied peacock. If we accept that the Pied phenotype results from a pea having one copy of Pied and one copy of White (which fits the oft-quoted equation I mentioned at the beginning of my post), then we should see the effects of both mutations -- white on front throat, white on wings, white on belly (from Pied), and patches of white in random areas of the body, neck and tail (from White). But the peacock in the photo has a rather neat and symmetrical presentation of white -- just on the throat and wings and belly, with no random white patches elsewhere. That phenotype results from having two copies of Pied and no copies of White -- thus the peacock is Dark Pied. THOSE are the birds which, when bred with White peas, will produce 100% Pied offspring. If you are told that Dark Pied birds have just a white feather or two, you're looking for split to Pied, or split to White, peas. Using those with a White will NOT result in 100% Pied offspring.

 

[DylansMom]

Again, if there's no standardization of terms, people will remain confused.

I'm sure you've all seen that "Pied X Pied = 25% Dark Pied, 50% Pied, 25% White" posted on various websites. Well, the "Dark Pied" in that equation is a pea with two copies of the Pied gene, which would NOT look like a normal IB with a tiny white spot on the throat. A pea that looked like that would be split to Pied (only one copy of the Pied gene), or possibly split to White (only one copy of the White gene) but more likely the former.

Peas with two copies of Pied (i.e. Dark Pied) will have a larger amount of white on the throat, and larger areas of white on the wings -- but no white patches on the back or in the tail or in other non-symmetrical areas. Dark Pied breeds true, just like White does. What is called "Pied" is a cross between White and Dark Pied, and this cross doesn't breed true -- it gives the percentages I previously mentioned.

I understand it gets confusing because people aren't consistent with using terms, and I also understand that some of what I say will be counter to what you were told by breeders or other peafowl people, but I'm trying to organize what I see into a way that makes sense genetically. For example, the middle pic on the page linked here is captioned as being a Blackshoulder Pied peacock. If we accept that the Pied phenotype results from a pea having one copy of Pied and one copy of White (which fits the oft-quoted equation I mentioned at the beginning of my post), then we should see the effects of both mutations -- white on front throat, white on wings, white on belly (from Pied), and patches of white in random areas of the body, neck and tail (from White). But the peacock in the photo has a rather neat and symmetrical presentation of white -- just on the throat and wings and belly, with no random white patches elsewhere. That phenotype results from having two copies of Pied and no copies of White -- thus the peacock is Dark Pied. THOSE are the birds which, when bred with White peas, will produce 100% Pied offspring. If you are told that Dark Pied birds have just a white feather or two, you're looking for split to Pied, or split to White, peas. Using those with a White will NOT result in 100% Pied offspring.

I've been trying to follow this discussion and based on what I've read, can I assume that this pied male of mine is carrying 1 copy of white, 1 copy of pied, and 1 copy of White Eye? Thanks!

 

[Rosa moschata]

I've been trying to follow this discussion and based on what I've read, can I assume that this pied male of mine is carrying 1 copy of white, 1 copy of pied, and 1 copy of White Eye? Thanks!

I don't see evidence of the White Eye mutation in this pic, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. From what others have said, peacocks with one copy may not show any white ocelli until they are a few years old, and I don't know how old your bird is. It's also hard to see each individual ocellus to determine if there's a white center in any. The white in the train I do see is a result of the Pied markings -- the white extends the length of the train feathers rather than simply being restricted to the ocelli. But your bird does show the effects of having one copy of Pied and one copy of White -- note the random patches of white which are not symmetrical, and these distinguish your bird from one that is accurately called Dark Pied.

I will attempt to further illustrate my point about the Pied and White genes with a proxy species -- the Muscovy duck. An important difference here is that in Muscovies, Pied (called Duclair) and White are NOT alleles -- they are mutations of different genes and are inherited independently. The comparison is meant only with regards to phenotype -- i.e. how the mutations affect appearance.


This is a Muscovy homozygous for Duclair (i.e. has two copies of the recessive Duclair mutation):



Note how the markings are rather clear and symmetrical. This would correspond to an accurate representation of Dark Pied in peafowl -- two copies of Pied.

Now look at a Muscovy that is heterozygous for White (i.e. has one copy of the incompletely dominant White mutation):



Note how the white markings are rather random and asymmetrical. This would correspond to a pea which is split to White, but the amount of white in those peas is typically less than is found in split to White Muscovies.

Now because the two mutations are not alleles, you can have a Duclair split to White Muscovy. That would look like a regular Duclair but with additional white random white patches in the areas which are normally colored on a regular Duclair Muscovy, basically like the one below:



Note how the areas which are white on a regular Duclair remain white -- no stray dark feathers. But the areas normally dark on a regular Duclair have random patches of white. This is an approximation of how Pied peafowl "work" -- again, the difference being in how the mutations are inherited, but the visual differences are somewhat similar.

 

[DylansMom]

I don't see evidence of the White Eye mutation in this pic, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. From what others have said, peacocks with one copy may not show any white ocelli until they are a few years old, and I don't know how old your bird is. It's also hard to see each individual ocellus to determine if there's a white center in any. The white in the train I do see is a result of the Pied markings -- the white extends the length of the train feathers rather than simply being restricted to the ocelli. But your bird does show the effects of having one copy of Pied and one copy of White -- note the random patches of white which are not symmetrical, and these distinguish your bird from one that is accurately called Dark Pied.

I will attempt to further illustrate my point about the Pied and White genes with a proxy species -- the Muscovy duck. An important difference here is that in Muscovies, Pied (called Duclair) and White are NOT alleles -- they are mutations of different genes and are inherited independently. The comparison is meant only with regards to phenotype -- i.e. how the mutations affect appearance.


This is a Muscovy homozygous for Duclair (i.e. has two copies of the recessive Duclair mutation):



Note how the markings are rather clear and symmetrical. This would correspond to an accurate representation of Dark Pied in peafowl -- two copies of Pied.

Now look at a Muscovy that is heterozygous for White (i.e. has one copy of the incompletely dominant White mutation):



Note how the white markings are rather random and asymmetrical. This would correspond to a pea which is split to White, but the amount of white in those peas is typically less than is found in split to White Muscovies.

Now because the two mutations are not alleles, you can have a Duclair split to White Muscovy. That would look like a regular Duclair but with additional white random white patches in the areas which are normally colored on a regular Duclair Muscovy, basically like the one below:



Note how the areas which are white on a regular Duclair remain white -- no stray dark feathers. But the areas normally dark on a regular Duclair have random patches of white. This is an approximation of how Pied peafowl "work" -- again, the difference being in how the mutations are inherited, but the visual differences are somewhat similar.

I think I get the dark pied showing symmetrical white areas and the white combined with pied showing irregular white patches. And I don't want to hijack this into a WE discussion, I'm just trying to figure my boy out to determine what hen I want to pair him with. He is approx. 14 years old, so a very mature male. I believe he gets at most 2 feathers that have white limited to the ocelli, however he has produced 2 silver pied offspring when paired with a silver pied hen. Am I right that he could not produce silver pied offspring if he wasn't carrying at least a single copy of WE. His silver pied son has NO colored ocelli, they are 100% white in the center, does this prove that he has the single copy? Thank you!

 

[Yoda]

Again, if there's no standardization of terms, people will remain confused.

I'm sure you've all seen that "Pied X Pied = 25% Dark Pied, 50% Pied, 25% White" posted on various websites. Well, the "Dark Pied" in that equation is a pea with two copies of the Pied gene, which would NOT look like a normal IB with a tiny white spot on the throat. A pea that looked like that would be split to Pied (only one copy of the Pied gene), or possibly split to White (only one copy of the White gene) but more likely the former.

Peas with two copies of Pied (i.e. Dark Pied) will have a larger amount of white on the throat, and larger areas of white on the wings -- but no white patches on the back or in the tail or in other non-symmetrical areas. Dark Pied breeds true, just like White does. What is called "Pied" is a cross between White and Dark Pied, and this cross doesn't breed true -- it gives the percentages I previously mentioned.

I understand it gets confusing because people aren't consistent with using terms, and I also understand that some of what I say will be counter to what you were told by breeders or other peafowl people, but I'm trying to organize what I see into a way that makes sense genetically. For example, the middle pic on the page linked here is captioned as being a Blackshoulder Pied peacock. If we accept that the Pied phenotype results from a pea having one copy of Pied and one copy of White (which fits the oft-quoted equation I mentioned at the beginning of my post), then we should see the effects of both mutations -- white on front throat, white on wings, white on belly (from Pied), and patches of white in random areas of the body, neck and tail (from White). But the peacock in the photo has a rather neat and symmetrical presentation of white -- just on the throat and wings and belly, with no random white patches elsewhere. That phenotype results from having two copies of Pied and no copies of White -- thus the peacock is Dark Pied. THOSE are the birds which, when bred with White peas, will produce 100% Pied offspring. If you are told that Dark Pied birds have just a white feather or two, you're looking for split to Pied, or split to White, peas. Using those with a White will NOT result in 100% Pied offspring.

Then please tell me why my charcaols bred what they bred: whites, pied, charcoals, ib, IB w/e and a silver pied?

 

[Rosa moschata]

If your birds are split to mutations, rather than having two copies, you can certainly still get a few Pied and Silver Pied offspring. But, as you posted, you'll also get peas that are splits or carry neither mutation. I didn't say that Dark Pied was REQUIRED to get Pied offspring. I said that Dark Pied X White gave ALL Pied offspring. Split to Pied X split to White will still give some Pied, but will also give split to White, split to Pied, and normal IB offspring.

 

[pedda munnangi]

yoda !) T x T = TT white 2) T x pd = Tpd regular pied, 3) T w/e x pd w/e = T pd w/e w/e silverpied 4) charcoal x ib split charcoal - charcoal and indiabluesplit charcoal and also ib with w/e.. If you put all the 4 together you will get the genetics of the parental pair .

 

[AugeredIn]

I think I get the dark pied showing symmetrical white areas and the white combined with pied showing irregular white patches. And I don't want to hijack this into a WE discussion, I'm just trying to figure my boy out to determine what hen I want to pair him with. He is approx. 14 years old, so a very mature male. I believe he gets at most 2 feathers that have white limited to the ocelli, however he has produced 2 silver pied offspring when paired with a silver pied hen. Am I right that he could not produce silver pied offspring if he wasn't carrying at least a single copy of WE. His silver pied son has NO colored ocelli, they are 100% white in the center, does this prove that he has the single copy? Thank you!

I would reserve the right to say there is a difference between a pied white eye bird and a silver pied bird, but yes. If your boy produced an all white eye offspring he must have a white eye gene.

 

[AugeredIn]

Then please tell me why my charcaols bred what they bred: whites, pied, charcoals, ib, IB w/e and a silver pied?

I am not disputing your results but I see no possible combination of genes in those two birds that could produce all of those combinations. To get whites each bird would have to carry white. To get pieds at least one would also have to carry pied. That means one would have to BE pied and thus would be visually pied. To get silver pied, since one already has to be pied we per the previous sentence, both would have to carry pied, white and we and thus would be visual.

What am I missing?

 

[MinxFox]

Again, if there's no standardization of terms, people will remain confused.

I'm sure you've all seen that "Pied X Pied = 25% Dark Pied, 50% Pied, 25% White" posted on various websites. Well, the "Dark Pied" in that equation is a pea with two copies of the Pied gene, which would NOT look like a normal IB with a tiny white spot on the throat. A pea that looked like that would be split to Pied (only one copy of the Pied gene), or possibly split to White (only one copy of the White gene) but more likely the former.

Peas with two copies of Pied (i.e. Dark Pied) will have a larger amount of white on the throat, and larger areas of white on the wings -- but no white patches on the back or in the tail or in other non-symmetrical areas. Dark Pied breeds true, just like White does. What is called "Pied" is a cross between White and Dark Pied, and this cross doesn't breed true -- it gives the percentages I previously mentioned.

I understand it gets confusing because people aren't consistent with using terms, and I also understand that some of what I say will be counter to what you were told by breeders or other peafowl people, but I'm trying to organize what I see into a way that makes sense genetically. For example, the middle pic on the page linked here is captioned as being a Blackshoulder Pied peacock. If we accept that the Pied phenotype results from a pea having one copy of Pied and one copy of White (which fits the oft-quoted equation I mentioned at the beginning of my post), then we should see the effects of both mutations -- white on front throat, white on wings, white on belly (from Pied), and patches of white in random areas of the body, neck and tail (from White). But the peacock in the photo has a rather neat and symmetrical presentation of white -- just on the throat and wings and belly, with no random white patches elsewhere. That phenotype results from having two copies of Pied and no copies of White -- thus the peacock is Dark Pied. THOSE are the birds which, when bred with White peas, will produce 100% Pied offspring. If you are told that Dark Pied birds have just a white feather or two, you're looking for split to Pied, or split to White, peas. Using those with a White will NOT result in 100% Pied offspring.

This makes soooo much since to me!!! Now my days of confusion are over! Seriously I have seen people say you can't tell a split to white from a dark pied unless if you breed them to say a white and see what offspring you get, but of course that is not always an option especially when the bird in question is one you don't want to keep for breeding and just want to sell.

This would mean that my peaock Peep is what I suspected: A split to white since he has no white on his throat and just a bit of white mainly on his smaller primaries.

Also, this makes me a bit sad because this means that nice peahen I had that was killed last year was in fact a dark pied because of her large patch of white on her neck and her white wings. I can't believe I lost her!!!




So, since breeding a split to white and a white will not get you pieds, what will you get? Half split to white chicks and the other half white chicks? I was planning on breeding my split to white peacock to a white peahen.