Pellet vs Free Range/Foraging

[saysfaa]

I won't go through them all.
0.29% compared to 0.37% is a large difference.
To make this clearer remove the zero and decimal point you get 29% and 37%.
If ones pay packet increased by 8% most would consider this as a substantial pay rise.

Well, yes, 8% difference in pay is substantial. Drinking 8% more water in a day just means I pee a bit longer at some point.

For Methionine, there isn't a single percentage that is optimal for every stage of growth, different amounts are needed during times of stress such as during hot weather, and different amount are needed depending on how much cysteine is consumed. Met is used to make cys but if there is more cys in the diet, it doesn't have to and can be used for the other things it does.

National Research Council says the chicks 0-3 weeks old require 0.50, chicks 3-6 weeks old require 0.38 and chicks 6-8 weeks old require 0.32%. Setting three week intervals is arbitrary; they don't flip a switch the change to need the next requirement. Even if you feed a different feed every three weeks, some will get a bit less than optimal and some will get a bit more most of the time.

If it isn't optimal, the difference from optimal shows up in growth rates if it is a small enough difference. It shows up in feather picking and cannibalism if it is a big enough deficiency. On the other end, growth rates start slowing at 1%, so that helps dial in the window of acceptable.

 

[Shadrach]

Well, yes, 8% difference in pay is substantial. Drinking 8% more water in a day just means I pee a bit longer at some point.

For Methionine, there isn't a single percentage that is optimal for every stage of growth, different amounts are needed during times of stress such as during hot weather, and different amount are needed depending on how much cysteine is consumed. Met is used to make cys but if there is more cys in the diet, it doesn't have to and can be used for the other things it does.

National Research Council says the chicks 0-3 weeks old require 0.50, chicks 3-6 weeks old require 0.38 and chicks 6-8 weeks old require 0.32%. Setting three week intervals is arbitrary; they don't flip a switch the change to need the next requirement. Even if you feed a different feed every three weeks, some will get a bit less than optimal and some will get a bit more most of the time.

If it isn't optimal, the difference from optimal shows up in growth rates if it is a small enough difference. It shows up in feather picking and cannibalism if it is a big enough deficiency. On the other end, growth rates start slowing at 1%, so that helps dial in the window of acceptable.

No problem with any of that.

 

[Geena]

Okay, want to have a go at defining either with respect to this topic?

A feed can be made from lesser quality ingredients or high quality ingredients and be at the lowest or the highest end of acceptable nutrition for that species. Some would be considered optimal nutrition, some are just bare maintenance, and yet they can all be referred to as a "balanced diet".

 

[Shadrach]

A feed can be made from lesser quality ingredients or high quality ingredients and be at the lowest or the highest end of acceptable nutrition for that species. Some would be considered optimal nutrition, some are just bare maintenance, and yet they can all be referred to as a "balanced diet".

Now we have quality and optimal in the equation and of course the breed and age of chicken being fed.

There are then a fairly wide range of commercial feeds that will keep a chicken alive (some will need supplements) and producing eggs.

 

[Toothpick]

My birds get the Dumor (?) layer feed from Tractor Supply. And they “free range” in the chicken run eating grass and bugs. I also throw them dinner leftovers if there are any. Watermelon rinds and garden veggies too. They basically eat anything and everything. Been doing it this way for years. Heck, for generations. That’s not to suggest it’s the “right” way. But the eggs taste good and the birds are alive and healthy.

 

[saysfaa]

...How about Protein. There are feeds containing 12% to 28% that I've seen...
All I'm trying to point out is there is a large variation in what gets described as balanced feeds.
.... The often recommended percentage protein is 18%.
Is the 14% feed balanced?

Protein is a catch phrase for any or all amino acids. Chickens need certain amino acids in their diets. Their body separates these out of their food and uses as they are.

There are other amino acids that they need but can make themselves if they have the raw ingredients.

There are still other amino acids that they don't use at all.

Amino acids from any of the above categories are broken down and the pieces are used as ingredients to make the amino acids they need and can make. Or are eliminated.

In plants and animals, amino acids are bonded to each other. You can't easily separate them like you can melt fats out of feed ingredients. So it is hard to add just certain amino acids to feed. Except, that some amino acids can be made synthetically.

Europe uses a lot more synthetic amino acids in chicken feed than the US does. That way, 12% protein can have all the specific amino acids needed. In the US, it is practically impossible to get enough of some of the amino acids they can't make without having more protein in general... it works out to about 18% given the most common ingredients. Maybe 16% for some ingredients and/or if a person is okay with a smaller margin of error.

 

[Shadrach]

My birds get the Dumor (?) layer feed from Tractor Supply. And they “free range” in the chicken run eating grass and bugs. I also throw them dinner leftovers if there are any. Watermelon rinds and garden veggies too. They basically eat anything and everything. Been doing it this way for years. Heck, for generations. That’s not to suggest it’s the “right” way. But the eggs taste good and the birds are alive and healthy.

Well this is the thing isn't it; there is no right way. Different breeds and different keeping circumstances require different feeds and different approaches. What may be optimal in one set of circumstances may not be in another.
There really doesn't seem to be much point worrying over much about the numbers until you start to deal with the fully confined keeping model. It does matter then because the chickens have no means of supplementing their diet much like battery kept chickens which is after all what the majority of the commercial feeds are made for.

It's also apparent that given the right breeds chickens can survive and produce young which is what is important for the chicken on forage alone. What one includes as forage is a debate on it's own. My view is domesticated chickens are bound to humans and as such food waste from humans and other domesticated creatures should be included as forage. The wild v domesticated debate is different.

 

[saysfaa]

Well this is the thing isn't it; there is no right way. Different breeds and different keeping circumstances require different feeds and different approaches. What may be optimal in one set of circumstances may not be in another...

Well said!

...
There really doesn't seem to be much point worrying over much about the numbers until you start to deal with the fully confined keeping model. It does matter then because the chickens have no means of supplementing their diet..

Maybe.
I don't think so because I know my soil is deficient in at least two minerals. Therefore, the plants are also deficient. Therefore, any chickens eating them will be eating a diet deficient in at least those two minerals. Even assuming chickens can and would eat the perfect combination of the available edibles.

 

[saysfaa]

Okay, want to have a go at defining either with respect to this topic?

I'll have a go at it.

Balanced is each component being in the window between enough to not have a big negative effect and not so much that there is a big negative effect. This after considering how each component interacts with each other component.

Optimal is the precise point between enough and too much. Any less and the results are not quite as good; any more and the results are not quite as good.

 

[Shadrach]

Well said!

Maybe.
I don't think so because I know my soil is deficient in at least two minerals. Therefore, the plants are also deficient. Therefore, any chickens eating them will be eating a diet deficient in at least those two minerals. Even assuming chickens can and would eat the perfect combination of the available edibles.

But, ranging chickens are likely to eat other things apart from plants. Even with the Ex Battery hens I now care for, vegitation is way down the list of feeding preference. They do eat some types of grass and a number of other plants. One would have to know the nutritional content of all the bugs, roots and other stuff they eat to make a valid judgement. This isn't really feasible.
Next, there seems to be the assumption that chickens need to eat a balanced feed every time they eat. Full free rangers will rarely get the opportunity to do this unless they find what I'll loosely describe as meat be that bugs or whatever.
Yet full free rangers survive and lay eggs and hatch young and many live to a ripe old age. The evidence suggests that keeping healthy enough for survival is possible on forage alone. Of course the quality of the forage is important but take for example free rangers in Senegal where on the face of it the forage there wouldn't support any creature; yet chickens survive there and many other similar places.
Nobody is suggesting that these chickens are getting the optimal diet, but they do seem to manage to balance their diet enough to live and reproduce.

There are around 300 amino acids I beleive, 22 of which are considered essential for humans. What benefits or not the other amino acids may have on the health of living beings isn't well understood.

Even with human diet the only basic and sensible advice is eat a varied diet. This way, hopefully one gets enough of what one needs despite the need variations from person to person to remain healthy.