Phaeomelanin effect of Recessive White Gene?

[Brigabart]

This is an interesting thread. A long time ago some older mille fleur breeders told me to always keep recessive white in my mille fleur lines, because it would keep the gold brighter. I dismissed it at the time but this thread is making me wonder.

 

[nicalandia]

This is an interesting thread. A long time ago some older mille fleur breeders told me to always keep recessive white in my mille fleur lines, because it would keep the gold brighter. I dismissed it at the time but this thread is making me wonder.

Don't trust unsubstantiated hearsay, I hear them all of the time from the Game Fowl crow.

 

[KristenG]

Here was my last bird that showed the hackle and saddle dilution. The lighting is poor and kind of diminishes the contrast, but you can still see it. I have no idea what the carrier status on the Blue Quail cockerel was, but his sire was Glibby, another known white carrier (I retroactively added Glibby in photo number 4 - now that I take a second look he does look like he has a slight dilution). I also included a Quail male that is a known carrier of white who is more evenly colored ( 2nd photo - Stanley), but certainly not as dark as one of my other males who was determined to not be a white carrier (third photo, Trimble), since I bred him to a white to test him -trying to eliminate white- and no white babies hatched....but I guess it is still possible since only 6 hatched) . Very low sample size, so this is very possibly chance alone. BUT now I will be paying attention...

 

[KristenG]

Don't trust unsubstantiated hearsay, I hear them all of the time from the Game Fowl crow.

I agree. You can't just trust everything you hear. It is good to have a healthy dose of skepticism. I think considering possibilities is different from trusting though.

I am also beginning to question my assumption that one copy of recessive white has zero influence on color based on the earlier posts in this thread. It is not convincingly substantiated yet, so definitely not going to go around telling people there is a correlation, but the possibility of this unsubstantiated hearsay having a grain of truth is compelling. Compelling enough to get me to pay attention. Even if it turns out there is a correlation, it could be two separate genes located close on the same chromosome, so not due to recessive white per sé. Correlation is not the same as causation. But if there is a link, I would love to see if it applies in my flock for sure. Why? Mostly for curiosity sake. But also because it might save me some time testing males.

I have a dilution factor in my Quail and Blue Quail. It affects only the hackles and saddles, for the most part. They also sporadically carry recessive white. I am trying to eliminate both, so I will be performing test matings anyway - what is a little time for me to record the colors of the birds that test positive for recessive white versus those that do not. I am a curious sort, and open to testing hypotheses.

 

[nicalandia]

Here was my last bird that showed the hackle and saddle dilution. The lighting is poor and kind of diminishes the contrast, but you can still see it. I have no idea what the carrier status on the Blue Quail cockerel was

Blue tends to dilute gold, not as much as a true gold diluters and it's effect will vary from one e allele to another one(it's greater effect is on ER/ER),

For example: Brown Red and Lemon Blue are the same ER/ER, s+/s+ based but the dilution of blue turns the brown to lemon color

 

[KristenG]

Blue tends to dilute gold, not as much as a true gold diluters and it's effect will vary from one e allele to another one(it's greater effect is on ER/ER),

For example: Brown Red and Lemon Blue are the same ER/ER, s+/s+ based but the dilution of blue turns the brown to lemon

Yes, it sure does! That is one of the reasons I don't like breeding the splash, because I feel like I don't get a good sense of the gold patterns on those birds. That and they mask white...though blue does mask white edging on the wings and tails a little bit too sometimes. But I digress.

At any rate, blue dilutes pheomelanin a little bit. I know this because I trapnest and pedigree my birds. I can compare siblings from the same matings that were raised together in the same environment. I keep very detailed records. Do I have deep golden bay in some of my blue quails? Yes. But on average, they are about a shade or two lighter than their full siblings that do not carry a blue gene. However, this dilution typically works across the entire bird evenly. What I am noticing that I really do not like is the uneven dilution. Usually it just shows up in the hackles. But sometimes in the saddle as well. It affects regular quails and blue quails alike.

So, I agree with you - there are many things that could be responsible. But saying that the blue gene is primarily responsible for this particular dilution in my flock I do not agree with. But thank you for throwing out other possibilities to consider. Good brain food for me to chew on.

Here are some pictures of some of my Blue Quail males that do not show uneven dilution. Some are darker (first two), last male shows the typical dilution for a lot of blue quails but it is still an even gold. I do not know the white carrier status on any of these birds as I have not test bred them yet.

 

[nicalandia]

So, I agree with you - there are many things that could be responsible. But saying that the blue gene is primarily responsible for this particular dilution in my flock I do not agree with.

There are multiple recessive white mutations with multiple allelic mutations(mo^w, c/c, c^re/c^re, c^a/c^a) that have been documented, there are some unknown that we are still not been able to identify. The effect that Grant Brereton may have encountered might not be the same you are encountering. There are just too many variables to come to a decisive conclusion.

 

[KristenG]

So true! I couldn’t have said it better myself! It’s a good thing I’m not looking for anything conclusive. After all, the point of a hypothesis is to disprove something. You can never prove anything for certain… I’ve always found the albino, the red eye and the recessive white to be a very interesting group of alleles, and I just learned about the mottled allele myself recently!