Pheasants cross breeding

[tigerrrrrrrlilly]

I totally understand the concept, but it confuses me the argument of keeping them in captivity to control. If we were not legally allowed to keep/breed them, wouldn't red goldens and amherst meet and breed naturally in the wild at this point, and therefore mutations would naturally exist? I understand the mutations may not survive if it were in the wild, but then wouldn't us keeping them captive be just as bad as crossing them? They are now becoming domesticated pets and the pure or mutation would not have a good chance in the wild. I guess my point is either way we are meddling with mother nature. And I didn't confuse evolution with mutation, just wanted to point out that there are tons of species that were originally a mutation at some point in time. Like frogs and ducks for example. Our cats and dogs are bred continuously for hundreds of years, they now for the most part, could not exist in the wild. Are we wrong to allow our dogs to breed and make mutts aka new breeds? Maybe so, but nobody is going to fight for that. I just find it hard to believe that preservation is the sole motive for anyone keeping them in captivity, especially when it's not in their natural habitat. Is anyone planning on releasing their pure golden's in the mountains of China when they are done? If not then technically we might all be "hobbyists" to a degree.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Quote:
Do Not Confuse Evolution with Mutation. As well as the fact that there are 2 forms of mutation--- the natural form and the abortions we can create. Evolution will happen dispite our best efforts at a pace we will likely never notice. Natural mutation will happen at natures will wether the stock is pure or not, un-natural mutation rest directly on the keepers/ breeders shoulders and has far reaching effects on the hobby as whole wether done as a back yard jobber or as a professional aviculturist. Playing mad scientist with these speces is something that will be done wether we care for it or not--- the problem here is lack of regulation. Theres no control of what you, I, or anyone else does with birds in their posession... The resultant problem is this- while you may be the most devoutly strict mad scientist and practice all the right behaviors and sales restrictions and whatnot, once 1 of these is gone from your care there is no way of controlling whats done with it from that point== this is the far reaching problem so many purists realize and working toward discouraging. 1 that gets mixed up in a pure stock contaminates the whole gene pool here, and them thier offspring go forth and further muddy the pool and so on and so forth.... before you know it the gene pool now looks like the inside of your septic tank. Yes there are some truely gorgeous creations out there--- no one will deny that. Unfortunately there is a rampant lack of conrol over what happens with these beautiful creations and that is what directly effects the speces as a whole, and the entire section of the aviary world related to it.

Think of it this way... How did the allied forces retake and free europe in WWII? they got a toe hold on a beach and then kept goin... This is the same effect the man made mutations have on pure speces. We see what the end result of that was... The end result of this will likely be the same if not corrected early.

Great post, hopefully all can understand that now

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Quote:
actually, there are more people around the wrold with that goal in mind than you may think, though, not your backyard hobbyest, but there are people out there that have that as their goal, and if ever needed and called upon, to me, it would be an honor to know I had birds that would qualify for such a task

 

[JJMR794]

Apparently not Aubrey...

 

[JJMR794]

Quote:
OK lets try this again....

Natural mutation happens at natures will, and we are powerless to stop it (This may well be evolution at work- who knows) Irreguardless if it is natures will it will happen in the wild and we cannot stop it. Now the abominations that joe the fesent freak makes in his backyard aviary are completely the problem here.

Just an example... lets say in 2000 there were less than 100 borneo donkeys in the wild and maybe 20 in captivity? (this is just an example and not actual case) So out of them 20 in captivity joe the fesent freak buys a lil stud colt.... Joes gets bored 1 day down the road but doesnt have enuf money, or doesnt want to wait til a new baby can grow to adulthood and he just lets his jack donkey have its way with his llama girls instead---- now these interludes lead to 3 of the cutest lil freaks on the planet--- look just like dad!( well almost...) 2 or 3 yrs later down the road Joe has tired of keeping these and sell them--- forsake of argument we'll say Joe was an honest up standing guy and told the new owner "These are not pure--- they are mixed with llama (thus their spitting nature...) " the new owner has them for 3 months, looses his job and cant feed them and is in a bad way for money--- he lists them on craigslist as pure and sells them.... what are we up to now? say 2006....so this new guy thinks wow those are nice looking--- a lil different than the pix on the cites website but pretty--- i'm gonna try these! he buys them and starts breeding them with his neighbors pure borneo donkeys at this time in 2006 lets just say the captive population is up to 32 and the wild is down to 68. then this continues until present day--- now here in 2010 we have 34 in the wild and 20 pure in captivity and 100 MUTATED ABOMINATION SPITTING FREAKS!!! THAT ARE ABSOLUTE NO GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT SPITTING AND EATING HAY AT AN ALARMING RATE... All due to the UNETHICAL acts of 1 person.

may just be my opinion, but i doubt it, When we as mankind take a wild animal into our care it becomes a ward of mankind and with that responsibility should come the moral and ethical codes of good stewardship that governs our acts for the care of this speces. DO we have cases like the 1 above--- sure 100's of them that have resulted in new breeds and new animals all togather some are good aome are bad some are indifferent. are they right or wrong? Depends on the case.

 

[tigerrrrrrrlilly]

lol...ok I will agree it depends on the case. I thought I kind of said that all along.

Just think it's wrong to argue the point that you are keeping something pure and protecting it by keeping it captive and breeding it, unless you actually have a large re-creation of their natural habitat, do not tame them and eventually release them to the wild. And I think nature could have intended for the crossings eventually since it is naturally possible for them to mate in the first place, they aren't being built in a test tube they are mating the good old fashioned way.
Just my opinion, I think I don't wanna debate about it anymore though!!

there's too many points of view! I'm getting scared to say any more!

lol

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

I hear ya, it's getting old, but I just got to point out one counter point you brought up, LOL
Yes nature gave them the ability to be crossed, BUT, in the wild, the are not in contact with each other, (various species that is)they are spread out over different regions of Asia, not 100's of all kinds in an acre. Therefore, natural selection based off species local, keeps them pure. true a small handful may in overlapping regions, but never enough to get a sustainable population.

It's like our US based wild turkey populations, we have 5 subspecies, but for the most part, all are pure, just a few mixes on the overlapping regions. They are the same bird basically, but built to handle different environments, thus keeping the subspecies pure.
Easterns prefer, rainy, piney woods, and swamps, merriams like, arid mountainous regions, etc thus keeping them true to the species, same with pheasants in the wild

 

[tigerrrrrrrlilly]

lol yes i agree but we have already meddled with that and it can only be fixed with a time machine!

 

[wilds of pa]

Turkeys have been around for a long time. Turkey history actually starts millions of years ago. Their fossils have been found in Pleistocene deposits which means that they have been around more than twelve thousand years and their predecessors go back 50 to 60 million years to the Eocene period.

Wild turkeys were domesticated in Mexico between 200 B.C. and 700 A.D. And when the Spanish conquistadors arrived, they were introduced to turkeys by the Aztecs. Turkey history in Europe began when, in the early 1500s, these birds were shipped to Spain where they quickly spread throughout western Europe.

Turkey history took an interesting turn in America when the colonists came to America one hundred years after the first turkeys were sent to Europe.

They brought domesticated turkeys back with them. These birds were bred with Wild Turkeys to create turkey breeds which were more hearty and meatier.

 

[tigerrrrrrrlilly]

thanks wild, that was what I had been trying to explain about breeds being some mix of something long past, but I did not have such a great example.