Phoenix bantams!

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

double post sorry

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Where did David get the original hen? Did he import it himself? And also, this isn't arguing, I just honestly don't understand why people call Cy's birds Phoenix? Cy's are pure Onagadori crossed or "graded" with some kind of game in the 30's which are now his standards. (I know his bantams do contain phoenix.) But I thought Phoenix were developed in Germany with particular crosses to the Onagadori? So is any Onagadori crossed with any kind of game a Phoenix? Or is an Onagadori without the non molting gene genetically and officially a Phoenix? Again, not at all starting a fight or anything, just curious. Thanks, MW

oh Lord no, dont see it that way at all. I personally enjoy talking about them.

David and Toni-Marie Astin are friends of mine, Toni especially is one of my best friends. The two of those literally wrote the book Long tailed fowl. They are both known around the world for their work with various breeds. Back in 2002 Toni did a lot of importing from Europe with the assistance of Marc King of Italy. However, I have never personally asked either where the actual hen cam from, so I am not going to say. Those 2 just have knack for finding them. I have a couple shojo hens from David and Toni's work on these, there's a full blog on onagadori.net about this rare color in the breed if you'd like to see how that one was discovered.
David took his original hen (he has a full blog about all this there too) and began work with it. After years of selective breeding for the proper onagadori traits, he now has birds to show his work in full glory. They are on the home page as well as the blog. His birds now rival, and in some case exceed the "pures" in Europe. Being that it is a felony for any to be exported out of Japan any more. Without proper breeding the breed will become extinct if action isnt taken. The European lines are being watered down due to lack of new stock, as are the few partial birds here. Fewer and fewer people in Japan are caring about the breed and it's basically just dying out mainly do to extreme inbreeding.

There is nothing in the world wrong with an outcross to fix this, BUT you have to be willing, like David has done, to do the work to get back to pure, proper type, which in onagadori is extremely hard. If just 1 group of feathers are missing just 1 of many genes they need, then it's NOT an onagadori.
Despite how perfect Davids birds are, he still refuses to put the onagadori name on them.

You kinda explained it yourself in your question. The phoenix was created in Europe and the US , but mainly Germany, from onagadori hybrids. Many different breeds were used, not just games. Dutch, large fowl games, Leg Horns, old english, nankins. pretty much you name it....

Now, there is a standard for each breed. The US has a standard by which all phoenix are judged. In short it has to have rapid growth on the tail, white ear lobes, slate legs, a 5 point and blade single comb, be a slim built bird, and carry it's tail at or near horizontal to be a TURE phoenix.

Non molting phoenix, are not phoenix, though the name is just what has be placed on them. They are most best described as such, and basically are a really good phoenix with a few more onagadori traits than your average phoenix. Pretty much they are a cross breed.

This would be you onagadori hybrids if you will.

Japan has the standard for Onagadori, as it is considered one of their national treasures. It's quite long, but is listed on ongadori.net if you care to check it out... A short and sweat one is yellow legs on white birds, willow on duckwings. White lobes and single comb. But a tremendous amount of detail has to be paid to the feathering. All 3 primary groups of feathers that make up the tail MUST contain, rapid growth, non molting, multiple feathering, and a few more minor things. Each of these groups of feathering has it's own comb of these genetics, some are recessive, some dominate, some co dominate, but if just 1 gene in 1 area of the tail is missing, then NO IT DOESNT QUALIFY as an onagadori, in addition to all that, the feather type is totally different than a phoenix. The feathers must be very fine, very thin, very soft, etc, the saddles are almost hair like in many birds. Even the body feathering exhibits these traits. Thick heavy and hard feathers are phoenix traits ....Just like the phoenix, it has to FIT this standard...not part of it, all of it,, if not.. well it's just a glorified hybrid phoenix if you will.

Most people in the trade simply call all these birds non molters, because they arent any true breed. To be a breed it has to fit the standard for that breed, period, there are no exceptions to this.

Now, for Cy's birds. Please do not get me wrong, I love Cy to death. He is a very kind easy going man and a joy to talk to. Without him and his work with log tails, the world would be at a great loss. He was one of the US pioneers for all things long tail.
BUT, his birds just no longer exhibit all the traits to call his birds true onagadori... it's that simple. His "original" birds were on this Earth some 75-80 years ago and are long gone. Yes a lot of work went into all them, but the simple fact is, the lack of pure birds over all these decades to back breed to, has left no other option but to use non molting phoenix at best, also dutch, leg horns, and old english have been introduced into his lines, some by him himself, some by the previous owners of the flock. But the fact is, over time, the breed has just been lost in this line and the birds arent correct enough to call the a true Japanesse ongadori. They are exteremely nice birds, any of which would make any of us proud to own them... I love the group I have here from his stock, but they are just really nice phoenix, some non molting, some not even that. Yes his large fowl line is better than his bantam line in regards to non molting fowl for sure.

Cy knows all this. And he has coined the term " American Onagadori" for his stock... This has been the topic of many a heated discussion as well. Simply put, it's not accurate and some what misleading to call a bird this. You can not have an American version just because you cant remake the original 100%. Basically, you cant take a breed from a foreign country, cross it with this and that, put "American" in front of it and disregard the native standard. This doesnt make the cross pure. It's kinda like saying well this is as good as it gets, here's the good ol American version of it.

Again, I have nothing at all against Cy, great person, love him, love him, love him... but his stock is not onagadori. It's very nice phoenix containing higher than average onagadori blood, simply calling them non molters is the best way to go about it.Though many around the world arent even seeing that any more. I believe Marc King has an article on his web page about that...

See, honestly a bird cant be called a non molter just because his father was, or his mother came from one. Go back to the recessive genes mentioned. Each male has to be tested in grow out pens and check for growth factors, durations between molts, weather or not it has multiple feathering, etc.... this all has to be done BEFORE you can even honestly call them non molters. Just because it came from one doesnt mean this particular bird got all the correct genes to be one. Many many breeders of non molters do not test. Toni-Marie had a thread about this. Testing takes several years, as normal phoenix can go 2 years without molting. So you have to exceed that, before it's even bred for the first time to check and see if the genes were passed to the off spring... all in all it's pretty complex

anyway, that's the short and condensed version of the differences believe it or not. Personally, I have never had any experience with onagadori, nor has 99.999999% of any of us. David or Toni-Marie can go into way much more detail, and the onadagori site has a lot of this info in detail if any are interested in learning more about the differences involved between the two breeds

 

[dvang3]

please post more up!