Phoenix's

[beckschicks]

Okay I have been reading on a bunch of forums but not really finding what I am looking for. Everyone wants to talk about the onagadori but I am really wanting to know about the phoenix. This history of the breed the correct body structure and everything I can about this breed. Basically I am wanting to start breeding them and want to be able to have a good understanding of what the makeup is of this breed and how to improve my breeding stock. Anything anyone knows would be so appreciated. I have been searching here on the forum but have not found anything breed specific.

 

[tandersphoenix]

Hi, here is the biggest thread on phoenix here I think.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=273550

There are several here who raise some pretty nice phoenix. What do you have now to work with? Bantam, large, colors. I have mainly bantam silvers and breed more for size and just a very good full tail and not so much for the longest tail.

 

[beckschicks]

Thanks so much for the reply we (my husband and I) are doing full size we love bantams but chose to go full size on the phoenix we are interested in the silver and golden. When I was a little girl my mother had a couple of phoenixs (golden) and I absolutely adored them. She and her husband were into game cocks and they did fight them back in the days when it was legal. I didnt care for that at all. But someone gave her a trio of phoenix's

and I have liked them ever since. Right now we have 5 silvers that we got from cackle we are hoping to get five golden's. I am looking at getting an incubator in the fall and start buying some higher quality eggs of the breeds we are wanting to play with and explore. Right now I need to be doing a lot more reading than breeding LOL I dont have anything of breeding age anyways.

 

[tandersphoenix]

I am happy to hear your birds are from cackle. I have raised stock for them for a couple years. I don't now but I do know the owner has put some money into his phoenix program and has roosters from some well known blood lines heading them up. Here is one straight from that program that I won reserve champion at our state fair with. I would like to improve some on his saddles but his tail grew in very well and I am using him as one of my main breeders. He has very clean ear lobes, good legs, and color so the rest I can still work on!!

 

[beckschicks]

We actually got birds from three hatcheries right now we bought a bunch of "yard" birds from Atwoods which were shipped from Ideal. We have had great luck with them but of course you get what you get from the feed store and Ideal was pretty much out of every bird we wanted in bantam for the year. Then we made an order from McMurray and they were out of phoenix for the year which I am very glad of. After we got our order (which I waited 16 years to place) I was so disappointed in the birds. We lost 7 during their "guarantee" time and another Belgian who was oh oh so tiny. Then we made the order from Cackle the birds were boxed so much better and just the way the birds looked was awesome compared to McMurray birds. We did lose one rosecomb and a couple of Japs but honestly when you are shipping something that small to begin with there will be loses. Hubby was talking to me today about ordering again in the next couple of days. Your roster is gorgeous I hope ours turn out half as purdy. Its nice to know we are starting with decent lines that are very improvable. I am hoping to breed for long tails (kinda goes without saying) and nice lines. I don't know if I will breed for show per say because honestly sometimes show things just dont appeal to me. I do want to breed for good vigorous lines though healthy birds are important to me. We often especially in the united states breed things to the point they are no longer healthy I hope you can understand what I mean by that.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Quote:
what exactly are you wanting to know about them?
They should be slate legged, white ear lobes, single combed, slim built. Saddles should be around 1/3 over all tail length. Good ones can go 2 years between molts though 12 to 18 months is average.
weight varies due to size of birds, bantam, mids, or large fowl

4 standard colors in both large fowl and bantams, bb red, white, gold and silver duckwing

They have no over all special heath care requirements. Tail and saddle care is all that's extra over a normal chicken.
For best tails, males need to be kept by themselves, reason being, even if you do all the following, breeders will get their tails stepped on by pen mates.

for best care of feathers, keep them in larger fully roofed pens, well drained with heavy full ground cover, basically you dont want water or mud to get to them. Covered waterers are best, milk jugs or coke bottled with the top cut out works well, you dont want them dragging their tails threw the open water fonts is all.
roost should be as high as possible. and litter kept clean.

Despite common belief, they originated in Germany and to a lesser extent the USA, none were ever breed/created in Japan yet every where you look on line, they tell you they are 1000 year old Japanese breeds.

What else would you like to know about them?
I only keep bantams for the most part so far in 15 colors, though do have some of Toni Maries large fowl German black imports now, just 1 pen worth.
But I know many great breeders of nice large fowl once you get ready for some good stock, feel free to ask if you want their info.

 

[beckschicks]

Thank you so much for responding. First let me say you have some AWESOME Belgian's I have been drooling over them for weeks. You gave me a ton of information thank you so much. I had read about the Germany thing so I knew they are not a "japenese" breed. I do understand there are some Japenese breed genetics in them. Not sure if I worded that to where you understand what I mean by it.

In regards to their saddles are they suppose to be a certain length not necessary measurement wise but in comparision to their body structure.

My plans are to buy an incubator this fall and start buying eggs next spring. I am scared to death to buy full grown birds due to all the horror stories I have read about bringing home disease. I know you can get it from day olds and eggs but it seems less likely.

Hubby is building them a special building that will be all theirs. But I hadn't thought about the deep litter in the bottom of the cage. We get LOTS of rain here so that should be interesting.

I feed a mixed food right now. I feed my older birds a mixture of corn, laying pellets, high protein gamebird feed, and lots of greens right now. I am changing the gamebird feed after this bag is gone I forget what percentage of protein it is but I feel it is too high so I am lowering it a little bit.

Please dont take this wrong I really do adore all my birds but I chose to buy hatchery birds to work the kinks out in my system before investing into something that has had a lot of effort and time to achieve it. I did this out of respect for the breeds I am wanting to raise and respect for the breeders. I have read so many stories of people getting awesome birds just to have them eaten by predators. I know there are no "predator" proof cages but I do feel it is my responsibility to make sure I have the best system I can. So I am working on feed, cages, predator control etc.

In regards to their combs is there any restriction on how many "spikes" they can have?

Also, if there is a place that has images of (I dont know how to word this so it comes out the way I want it to) "champion", "right" phoenix's please let me know where I can find that. I have looked at Toni Maries site. I have read the whole forum on long tails I forget what it is called at this momment but I think you have some writings on there if I remember. I guess my point is what I mainly see is where everyone is wanting to recreate this 1000 year old blood line which is awesome but it is not the bandwagon I want to jump on.

I have been doing some reading on genetics and such but what I find is mainly about colors. I dont find a lot on how to choose for long tail growth, saddles etc. I am not going to pretend I know much about genetics. I have had a couple of years of college biology but that only makes me more stupid not smarter LOL. So I am doing a lot of reading on that pretty much anything I can find doesnt matter what breed. So if you know of good books, web sites etc I would so appreciate that. Also, is there a breed web site for phoenixs? I have not been able to find one.


Sorry I am long winded.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

oh there's nothing to take the wrong way about any of that. I wish everyone would go about it the way you are. That's very respectful.
For critters, I have 2 strands of electric fence around all my pens, one at 6 inches to stop digging under, one at 12 or so to stop chewing threw the wire. has been my best effort on them, we live next to a swamp on a river in the woods, so it's a nightly attack here at the KFC for them. Since I did all that, havent lost a one, yet...

the saddles should be 1/4 to 1/3 the tail length

onagadori.net is that site you talked about.
there are many with great knowledge about all longtails on there, you just have to get into the phoenix block of it. Yes they all love the onagadori on there, but they know and talk about the phoenix, sumatras, ohiki, all the long tails too.

yes onagadori was used to make the phoenix, that's true, the on line stuff just has their origin facts wrong.

with the disease thing, unfortunately, most of the bad ones are passed mother to egg too, so even the eggs and chicks can be infected. reguardless of what you get in, even from hatcheries, quarentine them for a minimum of 30 days, and only buy from well respected breeders and you will greatly limit your risk. Most all of mine have came from Toni-Marie so I dont worry about hers, but they still get a month in the hole sort a speak just to be safe. Actually headed back up to see her this weekend. But do watch those diseases.

for breeding selection.
obviously use you best tailed males, but even better are the hens, use the best hens from your best males. The hens actually put more into the tail for you than the males does. Spured hens, and hens with super long tails are excellent breeding choices.
combs should be 5 pointed. I dont show myself, dont have the time, so I'm not sure if the 7 pointed ones are a DQ or a fault.

and thanks for the complements on the d'anvers too, been working for years on them.

have you tried Marc Kings website? He has some excellent info on all longtailed breeds on there too. Just goggle his name with phoenix beside it, it'll pop right up.

If you think of anything else, just ask

 

[tandersphoenix]

There's Aubrey! goin back to Toni's huh, wish she wasn't so far away but I still have lots of her blood here on the farm.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

Quote:
haha, yep I love her to death, glad she isnt but a few hours away