Plymouth Rock thread!

[DMRippy]

The roo is sitting on the floor at the door you can see him in some pics if you look hard but the pics are all pullets.

 

[Wynette]

Read the SOP description, I think would be the best, rather than the pictures. ??

(Male) Back: Rather long, broad its entire length, flat at shoulders; nearly horizontal from neck to saddle, then showing a slight concave sweep to tail.

(Female) Back: Rather long, broad its entire length, flat at shoulders; extending with a slightly concave incline to tail;

PS - of course, I am not a long time breeder.

Thanks, Kathy - of course I've read the description. What is being placed at the shows does not seem to agree - that's why I'm asking. "Nearly horizontal from neck to saddle" is not what is being placed - I'm not trying to be contentious, trying to figure out the discrepancy, so I can know what to look for in breeding my flock forward.

 

[Yard full o' rocks]

Thanks, Kathy - of course I've read the description. What is being placed at the shows does not seem to agree - that's why I'm asking. "Nearly horizontal from neck to saddle" is not what is being placed - I'm not trying to be contentious, trying to figure out the discrepancy, so I can know what to look for in breeding my flock forward.

Wynette

Sounds like a good question for the folks over on "the other thread"....with several judges in that bunch, you might get a better answer. I'd like to know myself as I too am breeding per the SOP. More "U" shaped than "V" shaped. "V" shape looks like a Wyandotte to me

 

[TurtlePowerTrav]

Some of my new Blue Barred Pullets, every gen the barring gets better, not really sure why that is taking as many generation as it is to get the barring better.

I don't mind working on it.

WOW, that is what I want to work toward.

 

[Wynette]

Wynette

Sounds like a good question for the folks over on "the other thread"....with several judges in that bunch, you might get a better answer. I'd like to know myself as I too am breeding per the SOP. More "U" shaped than "V" shaped. "V" shape looks like a Wyandotte to me

Thanks, Scott - good suggestion. Just posted.

 

[Robert Blosl]

These are some of the best tailed males I breed from the male below about six years ago. Schilling would say they had good fully furnished tails. They weighed about one and half pounds over standard weight at 10 months of age. Tight feathered as can be and they where heavy as a lead rock when you held them.

This is one of my favoirte Columbian females Scott Raised. Look at her chest and the lift. Looks like most white rocks with the Columbian color pattern

This male was almost flat when he was seven months old as a cock bird he had the lift you are talking about. Most ckls do not have it but cock birds do.

I saw your request for help on the type of the Plymouth Rock. Most of the Rocks I have seen and even my own have a High Hitler type of lift. I call it this as when he would say High Hitler he would hold his hand up at about a 35 degree angle and every buddy else did to. I have a few White Rock bantams that have the ideal lift in the males. The females have the normal elevated lift kind of like a Wyandotte lift. Starts at the neck feathers and goes straight up.

What do you do? Just keep plowing away as it is the norm in most birds shown Sometimes what is in the standard is very hard to reproduce. In my Rhode Island Reds about twenty years ago I had the most perfect brick shape flat top line curved breast, legs dead center but no tail lift. The back came flat off the top line and the tail followed no lift. All I could do is take the feathers and bend them upward and show them at a show and they would stay bent for two days and then lay flat. Then if you try to get more lift in the tail, you end up loosing your length of back and the next thing you got a red with a top line like a rock. Today the red bantams look like rocks and we call them red rocks. They have top lines like a Plymouth rock and some like a new Hampshire bantam.

What should you do. Foucus on the whole bird. Try to get the length of body, look for the gravy bowl or derby hat look in your birds. If you start to get a sway back lift like the standard work on this look. Select bird where their backs kind of come off the neck feathers flat and in the middle of the back above the line of their legs it starts to make a lift then Bam you got it.

Size, could be the reason we cant get it. Some of the White Rocks are so big they are as big as jersey giants. I moved two White Rock Ckls to the main barn today to condition for a show in February. They are not real big com paired to the Rocks from the mid west. They may be three to four pounds overweight. Is the reason they have the High Hitler top lines? Maybe.

I know my Rocks and Mr. Weavers are about one pound to one and a half pounds over standard weight. They are tighter feathered as can be so that makes them look smaller. This is caused by me pushing the egg laying gene years ago to improve feather quality. Judges dont help. If they pick these big birds over smaller type birds like mine what can you do.

You have to breed to win or breed to the standard of perfection. With all the new young judges coming out it may be no turning back. They will do what they are taught by their mentors when clerking. If that judge likes a big big Rock so will they. They have never raised large fowl Rocks any way.

So get your books out look at your pictures and then try to find birds that resemble the type in the picture. Buy you a digital scale, weigh your birds and try to get them at least one pound over standard weight. Stop that's good enough. Big is not better.

Then you got your color issues. You guys who have non white birds have a hard job to go. Some of you have birds that may have been crossed with bantam blood to get the color right years ago. You will be fighting that issue. Many want to cross a big white rock on to get the size. Then you wash out your color even on a barred rock. They dont have the blue dark color like a pure breed true old fashion barred rock.

That's about it for me. That's what I see and know. I just breed by the standard and screw the judges. They may not like my birds because they are not big enough.

I showed a pullet who was one pound over standard weight. The judge picked a hen that was so big she could not move around in the large fowl coop. He came up to me and another breeder and said I like a big big large fowl that will fills up the coop. That's why I choose the white rock hen. If I had a digital scale and I protested his decision she would have been disqualified for being over weight. My friend who is a bantam breeder said he is wrong. He is not judging by the standard but what he likes. A large fowl should be able to move around in a single large fowl coop he said. Your bird was the better bird and was true to type. The bird that won is like on steroids.

So there you have it. You win some and you loose some. BIG IS Better in most shows by most judges. The APA and the ABA wont do a dam thing about it. They let the judges do what they wont. They are hurting our breeds in the way they judge but no one listens to our pleas. The ABA wont do a thing about the Red Rock Rhode Island Red issue. So only about 25% Of the Rhode Island Red bantams are breed to the standard.

Great discussion. Keep up the good work and suport the poor colors of Rocks that need help out there. They are becoming very very rare in the hard to breed colors. bob

 

[Chloe77]

Wow, you're so right. I wish people would breed Rocks like they used to. I hope what you said affects people who breed. It would be nice if heritage breeds were more common. Sad really.

 

[Wynette]

Bob, MANY MANY thanks for your words - I will take them to heart. And you know my line...it will not be difficult for me to keep them to standard size!

I applaud you for putting out your honest thoughts on this issue - it is VERY much appreciated and you've given me lots to think on and ponder. THANK YOU!

Interesting story about your RIR of many years ago, and your "trick" of bending the tail feathers to ge the lift. These are the little things that folks with not NEAR the experience you have do not know about.

I have some birds that I will be using with my silver penciled rock to help increase size this next generation. I will take careful notes and lots of pictures, and will share my results in a few years. My biggest worry is losing the crisp penciling that I currently have - also, I have a few hens with nice type (but small, of course) but their penciling is smutty. Every LF I have seen at shows this year has been smutty. I look at the bantams, and THEY have gorgeous and correct penciling. Sigh. My very best hen has incomplete penciling at the front/top of her neck...my worry with using her in the cross I have planned is that it will be worse after the cross.

Next year, I'll have some pures, and some crosses on the ground. It will be interesting to watch them all mature!

 

[Ashburnham]

My young Barred Rocks.
I had forgotten how slow they are at feathering.

 

[Chloe77]

My young Barred Rocks.
I had forgotten how slow they are at feathering.

They are so pretty!