Polish frizzle questions

[MadamPoofyBrow]

Can you tell if they have the modifier by looking at them? I will get some pics later. For example I crossed a regular Silver partridge Silkie roo to a smooth drizzle partridge hen. They had several chicks two of which were drizzles. One was a regular drizzle the other a drizzle with shredded Silkie feathers (which are so cute!) I sold the silkied drizzle and kept the regular partridge frizzle. I'll get some pics soon.

 

[MadamPoofyBrow]

Todd Johnson-my regular Silver Partridge Silkie. Sorry for the bad pic, he wont hold still and it rained really bad yesterday...

This is Zinnia, the chick from a regular SIlkie and a smooth frizzle. She is a frizzle, also kinda muddy from the rain...

Orchid, the smooth frizzle that threw Zinnia when crossed with Todd Johnson. She's sitting on eggs.

My rescue frazzle. All but one of her chicks has been a frizzle. She's also sitting on eggs.

 

[Bunnylady]

The only way that a smooth bird can pass the frizzling gene to its offspring is if it also carries two copies of the frizzle modifier gene. This gene "unfrizzles" the feathers, so that a bird does not appear to be frizzled, although genetically they are.

A simple punnet square will show the correct ratios that Bunnylady stated. However, this is ignoring the frizzle modifier. How common it is or is not has been up for discussion for years. I would suspect that MadamPuffyBrow's flock has many with the frizzle modifier gene, including some who carry 2 copies of frizzle, but appear to have only a single copy because they also have two copies of the modifier gene.

Thank you so much for this, Sonoran! I was hoping that someone with some knowledge/experience with the frizzle modifier would give us some input here.

I knew of the existence of the frizzle modifier, but not much more about it. I knew that there were:

Smooth birds, that don't carry the gene for frizzling
Frizzled birds, that have one copy of the gene for frizzle
Frazzled birds, that have two copies of the gene for frizzle
Smooth birds, that have the gene for frizzling, but have the modifier (I assume that it's a straightforward recessive, since you say it takes two copies?)

Are you saying that a frazzle that also has two copies of the modifier would look like a Frizzle? That would help to explain some of the discrepancies that MadamPoofyBrow seems to be seeing.

Breeding two birds that appear smooth, but are actually frizzles with two copies of the modifier, would produce offspring that all have two copies of the modifier. That would result in (approximately):
25% smooth birds that don't have the frizzled gene, but have 2 copies of the modifier
50% birds that have the frizzled gene, but appear smooth because they have 2 copies of the modifier
25% birds with 2 copies of the frizzled gene (Frazzles) that appear to be only frizzled because they have 2 copies of the modifier.

This would explain how MadamPoofyBrow could breed two smooth birds and still get a few "Frizzles" - they are actually Frazzles, that are being modified. It would also explain why she never sees Frazzled birds. If we assume that all of her birds have two copies of the modifier, then her "smooth frizzles" have one copy of the frizzling gene, and one of the non-frizzling gene, but appear smooth because they are being modified, and her "frizzles" are all actually frazzles that are being modified. If that were the case, breeding a heterozygote (smooth frizzle) to a homozygote ("frizzle," that is actually a modified frazzle) would give you 50% smooth, and 50% modified frazzles, that appear to be frizzles, and no visual frazzles because they are all modified to look like frizzles.

 

[MadamPoofyBrow]

Olay now I'm confused!
I am not breeding two smooth drizzles together, I am breeding a smooth drizzle to a regular silkie with no drizzle ancestors. And how could they be frazzle when there's never been two drizzles crossed together in their line?

 

[Bunnylady]

Crossing a smooth frizzle to a visual frizzle is breeding a frizzle to a frizzle. Both birds carry the frizzling gene, it's just that one has the modifier working to undo the effect of the frizzling gene, making the bird appear smooth.

Assuming that all of your birds are homozygous for the modifier is a bit too simplistic; that could happen in a closed breeding flock, but if you are bringing in outside birds, it's less likely (especially if they come from non-frizzle breeding programs).

But here's another possible scenario:

A "smooth frizzle" is a bird with one copy of the gene for frizzle, and one of the non-frizzle gene, and two copies of the modifier. If you cross that to a bird that is smooth because it has no copies of the frizzle gene, but which just happened to have one copy of the modifier, you'd get:

25% frizzled birds, that have one copy of the modifier
25% smooth frizzles (one copy of the frizzle gene, and two copies of the modifier)
25% smooth birds that have only one copy of the modifier
25% smooth birds that have two copies of the modifier

So from this cross, you'd get 25% visual frizzles, and 75% birds that are smooth, either because they are modified frizzles or because they are simply smooth, without a frizzle gene.

If you are breeding a smooth frizzle to a bird that is smooth because it has no frizzle genes, and it also happens not to have any copies of the frizzle modifier, then you should get approximately half frizzled offspring, and half smooth. (Remember - these ratios apply to large numbers; in a sample group as small as the offspring of a single pair, the numbers could be way off.) The smooth offspring of this type of cross are simply smooth, with no frizzle genes, and won't produce frizzles unless they are bred to a bird that does have at least one frizzle gene.

 

[MadamPoofyBrow]

But I am not breeding a smooth drizzle to a frizzle. Bam breeding a smooth frizzle to a regular Silkie who comes from three generations of my breeding and came from a a non frizzle breeder. And even if somehow he has frizzle in his past therefor the babies being a double frizzle, why aren't any losing their feathers?
I'm not meaning to be argumentative. I'm just trying to understand this because I seen to be getting drizzles that don't seem to be frazzled from a cross that should only be getting smooth birds.

 

[Bunnylady]

If you are breeding two birds together and getting any frizzled offspring, at least one of the birds must be carrying the frizzled gene. If both birds are visually smooth, at least one of them is a smooth frizzle (i.e, has one copy of the frizzle gene, and two copies of the frizzling modifier). If one bird comes from a long line of non-frizzles, it most likely has no frizzle genes. When a straightforward, smooth bird that has no frizzle genes is bred to a smooth frizzle, some of the offspring will get the frizzle gene from the smooth frizzle parent. Unless the non-frizzle parent just happens to have the modifier and gives it to the chicks that got the frizzle gene, there should be some frizzle chicks from a genuine smooth x smooth frizzle cross. If the non-frizzle parent does not have the modifier, then all of the smooth chicks from the cross are just that - smooth, with no frizzle genes. They aren't smooth frizzles, they are just smooth. If the smooth parent just happens to have a copy of the modifier, then some of the smooth offspring could actually be smooth frizzles.

 

[MadamPoofyBrow]

Okay I think I'm getting this. If the smooth drizzle parent, no matter what it's crossed with, will have some frizzle chicks if he/she has a double modifier?

 

[Bunnylady]

Not quite. The only way for a bird to carry the frizzle gene, and not be a visual frizzle, is if it has two copies of the modifier. That's what a smooth frizzle is - a bird with a frizzle gene, and two copies of the modifier A bird that doesn't have two copies of the modifier, and is smooth, is just that - smooth (with no copies of the frizzle gene). Some smooth offspring from a frizzle could be smooth frizzles, but only if they got a copy of the modifier from both parents.

 

[MadamPoofyBrow]

So how do they get the double modifier?