Poorly hen with wizened comb.

[chooks4life]

The cockerel's extra attention is odd, unless the other hens have paler crests and wattles than they ought to, and her darkened crest and wattles are making him think she's hormonally more mature than they are. Hens are supposed to have good, red crests, wattles and faces when in full health and in lay, anything paler generally indicates a lack of some sort.

Most people find their hens go pink-crested/wattled when brooding or moulting but mine didn't; I attribute this to known carminatives I was feeding them. Grass is one, but kelp is another, and so are some of the herbs I often fed them, and the spices. I.e. cayenne etc. Cold pressed olive oil is also helpful because more flexible capillaries transfer more blood, and hence more life-giving oxygen, further throughout the body than stiffer ones. Lack of good circulation, of which pink wattles, white faces etc are some symptoms, is general malaise, not isolated to any small area but affecting the whole body. Straws on the camel's back, as it were, if you get what I mean.

I hope things go well, it is a bit odd she's looking worse then better by turns, but one can always hope. Some diseases are cyclical in appearance of symptoms, so if she's always better at a certain time of day it may be one of those. But there's so many things it could be, I hesitate to hazard a guess!

All the best.

 

[rebrascora]

Sadly she fell off the perch (literally rather than metaphorically) through the night, although I fear the latter is now very likely and imminent. Her comb is almost black and there are noticeably more lice on her than there were the other day, presumably because she hasn't had the energy to dust bath for the past few days. I'm syringing fluids into her and she shakes her head when I'm a bit clumsy and give her too much at a time, but she doesn't have the strength to stand. I do wonder if I should perhaps euthanaze, although I'm not sure I'm up to the task. It seems mean to treat her for lice when she is so poorly, but will take advice if anyone thinks the lice should be dealt with at this late stage. I'm going to give all the others a good dust with DE since there are obviously lice within the flock that need controlling.

Most of the others have very bright red combs, but two have darker slightly wizened combs like hers and the two exchequer leghorns combs are more pink than red, but very fleshy. They have always been paler, which I assumed was part of their breeding. They are all acting healthy and normal though thasnkfully.

Anyway, I'm off out again to see if she has picked up at all, from the fluids I gave her this morning and perhaps give her some more.

Any further input from anyone welcomed.

Thanks

Barbara

 

[Sarevan]

I see you were given some good advice for your sick hen.

I wouldn't use DE as a poultry dust, the mites/lice can actually be too small for the DE to get into the body sections or breathing parts to kill them like it would for larger insects and beetles. A good poultry dust would be better to use on her and the flock. Then clean and dust the coop, roosts and dust baths. Parasites can cause a bird to go down as they are losing blood or the nutrients lost to internal parasites.

A friend had a heavy infestation of worms that she thought was controlled by DE, when she butchered one that appeared healthy she found heavy worm load in the bird. Mites and lice also made her birds look anemic, combs were red but not as bright as they should have been.

You could try to tube feed her the baby bird food they give baby parrots. Can be purchased at a pet store in a container. Can be mixed with water, probiotics or electrolytes added to it. Here in the states it is Kaytee brand. I keep it on hand for a chicken that is unable to eat or other crop problems. The tube kit can be found at a feed store, lamb tube feeding kit was what mine was found under. Or aquarium tubing can be used with end melted down to round off sharp ends.

My roo was only fed corn scratch by previous owners, he was thin for a buff orpington and a bit underweight. Had mites/lice and was wormy even if it didnt show in his poo. Was dusted with Sevin dust, wormed with Valbazen. (Saw immediate change in him in 24hrs) Gave him the liquid bird food 2x's a day to help him gain weight by tube feeding. He was given pellet feed in mash once a day with free choice pellets. ACV in water, extras were veggies and short cut grass that was popping up under the snow. After his quarentine was up he was healthy had weight gain, feathers were brighter, wattles and comb bright red. He danced his way into the hens coop and is happy and healthy now.

 

[KayTee]

You could try to tube feed her the baby bird food they give baby parrots.... Here in the states it is Kaytee brand.

Maybe I should change my username - I didn't know it was a brand of baby parrot food in the US

How is your girl doing, Barbara? Her symptoms seem quite strange. It is a shame that you can't post a photo - it might help someone to pick up on something.

Fingers crossed that she is improving - you seem to be caring for her and doing everything you can for her - no-one could ask for more.

 

[rebrascora]

Hi

Thanks for your support and interest.

She had lain quiet all day and I gently syringed liquids into her little and often but sadly at about 6pm, she had some sort of spasm or seizure and after shrieking and flapping her wings, she died. Really wish I had put her down earlier and it was sheer cowardice and lack of moral fibre on my part that I didn't, because I knew it would take a miracle for her to recover from the state she was in. Hopefully I will learn from this experience and do better next time.

Will try to do a Post Mortem today and report what I find and I will be going to the feed store on Tues to see what can be bought to treat the others for lice and worming options.

Many thanks again for seeing me through this really difficult time. I so very much appreciate it.

Regards

Barbara

 

[subhanalah]

Hi

Thanks for your support and interest.

She had lain quiet all day and I gently syringed liquids into her little and often but sadly at about 6pm, she had some sort of spasm or seizure and after shrieking and flapping her wings, she died. Really wish I had put her down earlier and it was sheer cowardice and lack of moral fibre on my part that I didn't, because I knew it would take a miracle for her to recover from the state she was in. Hopefully I will learn from this experience and do better next time.

Will try to do a Post Mortem today and report what I find and I will be going to the feed store on Tues to see what can be bought to treat the others for lice and worming options.

Many thanks again for seeing me through this really difficult time. I so very much appreciate it.

Regards

Barbara

I don't think it's being a coward. I think it's wanting to believe with all your heart that they can come back from it.
ultimately, it's admitting that you really don't know the outcome, and by taking action, you've decided the fate of another life. It's a very heavy burden to bear unless you really know they won't come back.
I think you loved her, and she loved you.
I believe she knew you were trying your hardest so wanted to give you the same in return but after the last attempt, she realized neither of you could do it and said goodbye.
Other than her very last seconds, it sounds like she had a very nnice last day.

 

[rebrascora]

Thanks for your kind words.

Quote:
That is certainly the case and it's a decision that terrifies me, which is why I consider it cowardice.
I am my own worst critic I'm afraid and will not make things easy by sugar coating a bitter pill. I do believe that acknowledging your failings is important, as long as you learn from them.

I did love her, as I do with all living creatures that cross my path, but sadly I doubt she realised I was trying to help, as I had not had her long enough to build up that bond of trust.

All I can do now is learn from this and as a result of her death, do better for the rest of my flock. It just worries me that it is a holiday weekend and the feed store is closed until Tues, so I hope none of the others start looking poorly today.

Best wishes

Barbara

 

[subhanalah]

I don't know if this will make a difference in how you think she felt towards you, but here's my story.

A feral cat I trapped (not stray, FERAL) had a terrible URI. It took his eye. He had a huge glob of mucous in his socket. It was gross. Long story short, that cat let me clean its eye, apply drops and ointment three times a day. It only took him being vulnerable and me being kind. He knew, and I believe your hen did too. They have a sense we can't understand because we don't have it.
Animals can often times tell when someone is trying to help, especially when they have previously been neglected by their perceived caretakers. This is especially true for domesticated lines of animals.

 

[chooks4life]

Hi

Thanks for your support and interest.

She had lain quiet all day and I gently syringed liquids into her little and often but sadly at about 6pm, she had some sort of spasm or seizure and after shrieking and flapping her wings, she died. Really wish I had put her down earlier and it was sheer cowardice and lack of moral fibre on my part that I didn't, because I knew it would take a miracle for her to recover from the state she was in. Hopefully I will learn from this experience and do better next time.

Will try to do a Post Mortem today and report what I find and I will be going to the feed store on Tues to see what can be bought to treat the others for lice and worming options.

Many thanks again for seeing me through this really difficult time. I so very much appreciate it.

Regards

Barbara

Sorry to hear that.

She sounded like she'd reached the end stage in the post you made before the one I've quoted, so it's not a surprise but still a shame.

I hope the post mortem reveals a cause beyond doubt, but if not, especially with the others looking unwell, I would consider sending her in for tests for disease and toxicity. Possible fallout from that is if they do find something extremely bad and order you to cull the lot.

I would probably get a water test too. It's sounding fairly serious, so if the others show symptoms you'll need to act fast, but you can't do that when you don't know what you're up against. I hope it's just an isolated incident but of course whatever we hope it is, we should try to be prepared for it being worse.

The spasm you noted sounds like a normal part of death for most animals, they flex and sometimes contract with a lot of force when they've died, though they often seem alive afterwards, it's just the nervous system doing its thing, not a conscious action of the animal itself. As in, it usually happens as a result of their death, not before it, even though there may be some occasional breaths and heatbeats after the death. The same thing happens to animals killed with bullets to the brain, the whole body tends to arch and flex even though it's obviously truly dead by that point.

If you're not sure about whether they've been wormed correctly it can help to do that even in the latter stages but sometimes won't help. Once things get too far it's sometimes irretrievable.

Quote:
The great thing is that it doesn't take time to build that understanding. It's instantaneous, the majority of animals are able to perceive friend or foe immediately, just by the actions of the other, they don't need time to build trust. It is given as soon as you show them you're not an enemy. That's just instinct, or a life skill, for them. I think subhanalah gave a great example of this. It's more common than not in my experience that an animal, even wild, will understand immediately that you are there to help.

I've dealt with many wild animals over the years, plenty of whom I seized from the wild, (often in less than the most gentle way due to necessity) to treat for an injury or parasite infestation or illness, and then released, and none of them had any problems comprehending immediately that I was intending to help them, not kill them; they settled down, cooperated, showed either no fear or little of it, and peacefully went their way when I released them. They tolerated rehabilitation involving cages, physical restraints, forcefeeding, etc, without complaint or struggle. Most of them even went out of their way and did some rather unnatural things to show appreciation for the help. Some came back for a visit once released. There was one little bird, rescued from a near drowned state and brought back to health and then released, who brought its whole family back to sing on the windowsill, something they'd never done before and never did again. There are also proven examples of wild animals helping other wild animals of different species, or helping humans to help others, just things that aren't explainable by ethology or our current perception of animal intelligence. Chickens have been found in scientific studies to be one of the domestic animals quickest to understand compassion and demonstrate it towards others, too. They don't necessarily comprehend the bizarre things we do to help but they comprehend the intent and that is enough. They trust the intent.

None of the feral or wild animals I've treated had time to build a bond of trust, they weren't tame either, plenty of them also had negative previous experiences with humans, but it didn't matter. They could even understand and respond to affection, took easily to handfeeding, cooperated deliberately with sometimes agonizing wound treatment, etc, it didn't need to be trained into them, they didn't need previous experience. Understanding the intent of other animals around them, us included, is something almost all of them do, easily; it comes natural.

Quote:
Regarding DE, I've never had a problem with worms or lice, and I always used DE and other natural things as parasite preventative and treatment; whether DE works or not apparently has everything to do with the grade of DE used, as many people don't use the right one and therefore don't get results from it.

I wanted to be sure, as I also doubted it initially, but whenever we butchered or did post mortems there were no worms. Never a single one. I personally inspected all the organs and interior of the intestines too, even when I wasn't the one doing the culls, just to maintain an understanding of how the animals I was breeding and feeding and rearing were coming along.

Whenever I brought in new stock, as a rule it seems they were wormy animals, and I simply put them onto the diet mine were on, and they expelled dead adult worms and never had a problem again. I've been skeptical about every single treatment I've used and have only decided they work after extensive tests over the years, lol. Often I didn't understand how it could work so I dismissed it out of hand, without testing it, until later finding the research to back it up. These days I test it myself, and not once or twice but many times under every different controlling circumstance, variable and criteria I can think of which is feasible for me to implement.

Regarding corn, I wouldn't trust today's modern strains to do anything more than give a sugar boost or even cancer to animals raised solely on them. Heritage breeds, or heirloom breeds, are the ones I was referring to, and they were known for being a superfood (to use a modern term in an ancient context) which could keep many sorts of species alive for prolonged periods in the absence of other feeds.

I'm not surprised your cockerel wasn't doing well on what he was raised on, modern corn is abysmally deficient as a nutrient source. I can't stomach it anymore, but I used to love corn.

Best wishes to all.

 

[rebrascora]

Many thanks to both of you for your wise, compassionate words and for sharing your experiences with treating wild animals, which brought to mind another similar incident that happened to me. I saved a bat which had been caught on a fishing hook tangled in a tree above the river. I took her home and enlisted the help of the local bat preservation society advise me on how to feed her and bring her back to health After I rehabilitated her and took her back down to the river to release her, she turned up literally on my doorstep the following morning.

Anyway, back to the issue of my chicken. I have just completed the post mortem and I', pretty sure that I have established the cause of death. Sadly it would appear that it was an impacted gizzard.
Her crop had one or two large pieces of leaves...and a tiny amount of grass and the liquid I had been syringing into her, but her gizzard was packed solid with green fibrous material and grit and a bit of wheat, so my guess about the grass cuttings was probably correct. She must have been in terrible pain with an impaction like that. Liver and kidneys looked fine and there was an intact egg waiting to be laid.
I also found a few round worms, but not a massive amount so I don't think they were a contributary factor in her death, but it has prompted me to treat the rest of the flock for worms and lice and ensure that they don't have access to the grass cuttings next time the horses get them.
The other chickens aren't acting poorly, but some of their combs are not as fleshy and bright as others. I may just be taking more notice as a result of this incident and it may be paranoia, but all I can do is tackle the issues I have identified and hope for the best.

All in all, the post mortem was worth psyching myself up for and although I feel bad that she died as a result of my actions, I can hopefully ensure that it doesn't happen again.

Thanks so much for holding my hand through this traumatic event.

Sincerest regards

Barbara