Post Pics Of Orps/ Orpingtons HERE

[justuschickens59]

Wasn't sure what you meant about pipsnpeeps then I went back and some things were gone. Yep, that was an example of the topic that was being discussed.
I was unaware that "English" was used so extensively on eBay. We have been discussing how it's used mainly here, I think. Every time I've seen it used here, the birds were legit English SOP type. Then again, I rarely go to eBay. I just plain don't trust it as a source for most things, especially eggs, unless I know for sure who that is I'm buying from.

I do know of a couple of people here on BYC who claim their birds are 100% English and I know for an absolute 100% fact that they are NOT. It definitely hurts those of us who are honest about our birds and those who have legit 100% English birds. It is a shame, but a lot of people will do anything for money.

 

[ruth]

I guess I would have to ask "What's in a name?" If a bird looks like an English Orpington and fits the SOP - then it's an English Orp. If it looks like an American Orp and fits the SOP then it's an American Orp. Country of origin and boarding papers don't make it one or the other. My German Shepherd didn't come from Germany but he is 100% German Shepherd. My Polish Chickens didn't come from Poland but they are nonetheless Polish by SOP (if there is such a thing for Polish) - but you get my point. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck - who cares where it came from?

I could spend money and fly some birds in from Timbuckto but it doesn't mean they are the best of the breed. Or I could work over time and breed something that is far better in appearance and would win shows over the birds I imported.

I think name dropping; original breeder; boarding passes; and using the term "100%" is a bit pointless - in my HUMBLE OPINION. What does the bird look like? Does it meet SOP? That's all that is important.

 

[justuschickens59]

I guess I would have to ask "What's in a name?" If a bird looks like an English Orpington and fits the SOP - then it's an English Orp. If it looks like an American Orp and fits the SOP then it's an American Orp. Country of origin and boarding papers don't make it one or the other. My German Shepherd didn't come from Germany but he is 100% German Shepherd. My Polish Chickens didn't come from Poland but they are nonetheless Polish by SOP (if there is such a thing for Polish) - but you get my point. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck - who cares where it came from?

I could spend money and fly some birds in from Timbuckto but it doesn't mean they are the best of the breed. Or I could work over time and breed something that is far better in appearance and would win shows over the birds I imported.

I think name dropping; original breeder; boarding passes; and using the term "100%" is a bit pointless - in my HUMBLE OPINION. What does the bird look like? Does it meet SOP? That's all that is important.

I agree with you to a point, but...what is in a name? Well, say you buy your birds from a breeder who is reputable, has spent years and years breeding to specific standards, breeding for specific qualities, then you pretty much know that you have a better than average chance of getting some of those good qualities in your birds that you get from that breeder. On the other hand, say you have a breeder who breeds their birds to anything and everything - while a few of those birds might look like good - who knows what you might get down the line when you start breeding from those. If you aren't concerned about the qualities that a good breeder works towards, then by all means, it does not matter what is in the name. But if I am buying something advertised as 100% English or directly from "John Doe's farm," that is darn well what I should get.

So I still stick to my guns that if you advertise that you have a bird that is from "John Doe" or is 100% English or German or whatever, that is what you should have.

 

[ruth]

I agree with you to a point, but...what is in a name? Well, say you buy your birds from a breeder who is reputable, has spent years and years breeding to specific standards, breeding for specific qualities, then you pretty much know that you have a better than average chance of getting some of those good qualities in your birds that you get from that breeder. On the other hand, say you have a breeder who breeds their birds to anything and everything - while a few of those birds might look like good - who knows what you might get down the line when you start breeding from those. If you aren't concerned about the qualities that a good breeder works towards, then by all means, it does not matter what is in the name. But if I am buying something advertised as 100% English or directly from "John Doe's farm," that is darn well what I should get.

So I still stick to my guns that if you advertise that you have a bird that is from "John Doe" or is 100% English or German or whatever, that is what you should have.

True - but as has already been discussed on multiple breed threads - someone can buy directly from John Doe or import 100% something and then go and ruin the breed totally. Some breeders import only one pair and then breed and rebreed that same pair and their offspring until inbreeding rears it's ugly head. So there can be "issues" all the way around when you buy birds. I remember when Marans were all the fad and suddenly birds hatching with web feet started showing up - coming from certain "breeders" and now it's carnation combs. And, even though my French Black Copper Marans came from the eggs that came from France it does NOT mean they meet SOP anymore than someone else's birds who have never heard of France. I think you should buy from a reputable breeder who has pictures of their birds or allows you to visit their facilities. Then on down the line (say a couple of years later), it is you, not the original breeder who can take credit for prize winning birds or face the problems you've caused by inbreeding or mixing other lines into the mix, etc. etc.

What I'm saying is that the original breeder and country of origin only go so far. What each new breeder does with that stock is what's important. I believe English Orps should be affordable and allow as many breeders as possible to own and work with this beautiful breed. As such, I sell my chicks for $15 each, not $65-$100+ each. With all my breeds, I show pictures of the parents and of the offspring I've raised from those parents but it's up to each individual to then improve on (or ruin totally) the work I've done in the 3-4 years I've been breeding them.

Last I heard, when you enter an Orpington in a show it's entered as "English" or "American". It either wins or not based on how it meets SOP and how it ranks when compared to the other entries. They don't ask is it "100%". That's not a terminology in APA SOP books or any breed book of any species. Also, as has been pointed out, many people just want a beautiful bird. They have no intention of ever showing the birds and they have limited funds. I try to help as many of those people own this beautiful bird as I can.

 

[ruth]

What's in a Name? English vs American?

For example - here's one of my young cockerel's hatched this summer from my own "line". Is he English or is he American if I were to enter him in a show? I say "English".

For size comparison take a look at the Welsummer in the background - and this guy is still young.








He and the Blue Orp (also a young cockerel I hatched this summer) are the only two males in my breeder pen right now. I don't think they are going to produce any "surprises" - instead they will produce English Orps:

 

[kathyinmo]

What's in a Name? English vs American?

For example - here's one of my young cockerel's hatched this summer from my own "line". Is he English or is he American if I were to enter him in a show? I say "English".

The shows I have been to have only ONE Orpington. There is no "English," or "American."

 

[ruth]

The shows I have been to have only ONE Orpington. There is no "English," or "American."

I don't go to shows but I thought there were different categories for Orpingtons since there are different SOPs. If there's not, goes to show what I know about shows. LOL I guess I "assumed" that since there's a difference between English and American SOP that they were judged differently at APA shows. I actually don't even know if the English is APA approved. I don't do the show "thing". I guess my point was about what's considered an English Orp vs what's considered an American Orp.

So, just out of curiosity - how do they judge between the two if one of the best of the best of SOP of each "type" of Orpington is entered? Is it the judge's preference?

 

[justuschickens59]

True - but as has already been discussed on multiple breed threads - someone can buy directly from John Doe or import 100% something and then go and ruin the breed totally. Some breeders import only one pair and then breed and rebreed that same pair and their offspring until inbreeding rears it's ugly head. So there can be "issues" all the way around when you buy birds. I remember when Marans were all the fad and suddenly birds hatching with web feet started showing up - coming from certain "breeders" and now it's carnation combs. And, even though my French Black Copper Marans came from the eggs that came from France it does NOT mean they meet SOP anymore than someone else's birds who have never heard of France. I think you should buy from a reputable breeder who has pictures of their birds or allows you to visit their facilities. Then on down the line (say a couple of years later), it is you, not the original breeder who can take credit for prize winning birds or face the problems you've caused by inbreeding or mixing other lines into the mix, etc. etc.

What I'm saying is that the original breeder and country of origin only go so far. What each new breeder does with that stock is what's important. I believe English Orps should be affordable and allow as many breeders as possible to own and work with this beautiful breed. As such, I sell my chicks for $15 each, not $65-$100+ each. With all my breeds, I show pictures of the parents and of the offspring I've raised from those parents but it's up to each individual to then improve on (or ruin totally) the work I've done in the 3-4 years I've been breeding them.

Last I heard, when you enter an Orpington in a show it's entered as "English" or "American". It either wins or not based on how it meets SOP and how it ranks when compared to the other entries. They don't ask is it "100%". That's not a terminology in APA SOP books or any breed book of any species. Also, as has been pointed out, many people just want a beautiful bird. They have no intention of ever showing the birds and they have limited funds. I try to help as many of those people own this beautiful bird as I can.

I do agree with you, again, to a point. As far as my stock goes, I have introduced two other lines to help with the blood lines....I'm getting ready to add a completely new line this spring. It is also my hope that everybody can one day afford the 100% English Orps. But people need to understand the cost of importing birds. It is easy to sell birds cheaper that are not 100% English and when you have not invested the initial cost of importing them to begin with. I have $4000 in my 2 birds I imported - and that is only the cost to import them. It doesn't add in the cost of feed, housing, etc. The 100% BBS English Orps were available for the first time last Spring and a lot of people bought them, so the price is definitely coming down. I gave a lot of chicks to folks last year free - I gave them to folks that I knew had an interest in supporting and promoting the breed - not just to make a few quick bucks. As so many people have them now, I no longer sell birds/eggs - I do hatch for friends and send eggs to friends that are working on the breed. Also, not everybody shows - so in some cases (mine for instance), whether they are entered as "American" or "English" makes no difference. I imported my birds because I loved them

What this conversation was about to begin with was people using other breeders' names to advertise their birds, or advertising 100% this or that when, in fact, they don't have what they advertise.

 

[justuschickens59]

What's in a Name? English vs American?

For example - here's one of my young cockerel's hatched this summer from my own "line". Is he English or is he American if I were to enter him in a show? I say "English".

For size comparison take a look at the Welsummer in the background - and this guy is still young.








He and the Blue Orp (also a young cockerel I hatched this summer) are the only two males in my breeder pen right now. I don't think they are going to produce any "surprises" - instead they will produce English Orps:

There are no two classes of "English" and "American" SOPs at shows. I don't show either, but I am aware of this. You have very pretty birds, but they fit the American SOP far more than the British SOP. They judge at shows based on the American SOP.

 

[ruth]

Joy - your birds are stunningly beautiful and obviously "100%" English - no doubt about it.