Problematic LGD

[iwantmorechickens]

I have a huge 8 month old female Anatolian Shepherd. She’s very calm, a very good dog really. She protects all of my livestock very well. My only complaint: poultry. It’s like she can’t even look at them because she lunges at them. She was recently spayed and had to spend a majority of her time either caged or tied up so she wouldn’t run. As soon as I let her out: boom! It’s as if she completely forgot what chickens were and she was chasing and lunging at every chicken, goose, turkey, and duck I have. It’s not like she’s 20 pounds anymore. Before she’d do that and the turkey would teach her a lesson by chasing her around the yard. Before I spayed I made her get used to being around her flock and being around the poultry at the same time. She was starting to get the hang of it. So far a she’s killed about 2 chickens, 3 guinea fowls, and a small silkie chick. About a month ago she started going into the chicken coop and taking out the eggs and eating them. I’m not sure what to do yet. I definitely don’t want to give her up. I feel that with enough training she will be a great LGD dog with chickens too. What would you guys recommend?

 

[Folly's place]

She's been given too much freedom too soon, and now is having a great time planning to kill your birds. Start over with her training and socialization with poultry, on leash, supervised. These dogs weren't actually developed to guard poultry, so this will take more time and effort on your part. Talk to your breeder, consult with LGD trainers, and plan on it taking maybe another year at least...
@centrarchid has experience with multiple dogs guarding the poultry, and there are probably others here too.
Big self-right dogs are a challenge!
Mary

 

[centrarchid]

For short term make so she can not get at chickens or their products. You have another almost year and a half where her puppy play side will be hard in the chickens. Separate for when you are not with her, then begin training her to leave them alone.

 

[cmom]

She is still a puppy so she is trainable but it will take work and time. Good luck...

 

[iwantmorechickens]

Thank you for the info. I’m going to need a lottttt of patience. I have also been reading several different articles about dogs and chickens. I’m counting on it being a hard year, but she’s a smart dog and I am sure she will start getting that hang of it with enough training. Thank you!

 

[lizo97]

@iwantmorechickens Has your LGD's behavior improved? I have been told it should only take 15 min of training a day, but getting an LGD to ignore and guard poultry may take 6 months to a year? I want an LGD, but I don't know what I am getting into.

 

[cmom]

I have had dogs in the past. They do deter predators and I never had a loss then. Since our last dog passes I decided no more dogs. I get too attached and when they die it's too hard. Now I have electric wires around my coops and pens, good heavy duty netting covering my pens and concrete under all of the gates due to losses from predators. I also put several cameras up to see what is roaming especially at night. Good luck...

 

[Allsfairinloveandbugs]

@iwantmorechickens Has your LGD's behavior improved? I have been told it should only take 15 min of training a day, but getting an LGD to ignore and guard poultry may take 6 months to a year? I want an LGD, but I don't know what I am getting into.

Have you worked with/trained dog(s) for any purpose before? That could mean anything from competitive dog sports to simply sucessfully teaching your dog not to jump on you, come when called, etc. If so, you at least have a basic understanding of the training required for a lgd. Consistency and time are the keys.

First and foremost is to know that typical lgd breeds are still Dogs. Meaning that they have the same instincts as other dogs, but certain characteristics such as prey drive/chase instincts are not generally as high. But if someone puts a lgd breed puppy out with chickens and thinks the pup will instinctly guard and protect them, that is a recipe for a disaster. The pup is very likely to eventually chase and "play" with chickens until they stop moving, same as other puppy breeds would. Same thing can happen when tossing in an untrained, unsupervised pup with a herd of goats

If you get a pup to protect your chickens (no matter the breed), the more daily exposure the dog has to poultry the better. But ONly let the dog loose with the chickens if you are present 100% of the time to supervise. Otherwise never leave the dog unsupervised at all. It's much easier to teach a dog not to harm poultry in the first place than it is to retrain a dog not to kill. Depending on the breed and the individual dog, some dogs cannot be trained to be trustworthy around poultry. When you think your lgd-in-training is trustworthy when in your presence, go inside and watch from a window, go behind a building, etc. Be ready to reappear immediately with a prompt verbal correction if the dog's behavior changes in your absence. If that situation happens more than a few times the dog may never be trustworthy. Plenty of dogs are "good" when their owners are nearby, but revert to their own desires if they think no one will see.

There's a whole lot more that goes into training a lgd for poultry than i can say here, but 6 months to a year is about right, assuming the pup has daily intensive interaction and supervision. That time passes faster than you think, & a pup cant do much protecting til it is full grown anyway. To be considered fully safe around chickens, a dog should show no reaction to chickens at all. No reaction to their running, flapping & squawking, no sniffing them for any reason, no interest if a dead one is laying in the yard.

Lgds dont bond with birds the same as they do sheep and goats. But they do understand their job to guard and protect their premises, & that keeps the poultry safe. Older dogs and other breeds can also be trained as lgds. It depends on the dog's temperment and how willing they are to please.

 

[iwantmorechickens]

@iwantmorechickens Has your LGD's behavior improved? I have been told it should only take 15 min of training a day, but getting an LGD to ignore and guard poultry may take 6 months to a year? I want an LGD, but I don't know what I am getting into.

15 minutes a day is wishful thinking. It takes a lot more than that. You have to understand that you are trying to train a dog to ignore a prey. I actually had less problems training my hound than my LGD. It's been 4 months since the last chicken attack. She is doing really well now because of all the time I put into her. I realized I wasn't dedicating the amount of time I should be to training her. If you plan on dedicating 15 minutes a day to training your LGD you will have a chicken killer.
They need constant supervision and praise. You need to be letting them know what's wrong and what's not. Since they're puppies they will obviously try to test the limits. Especially when they do not see you around. Something that worked for me was locking her inside the chicken coop for 15-30 minutes a day. I would sit outside the chicken coop and wait until I heard the chickens start to get scared. I would catch her in the act of cornering a chicken. I would grab a rolled up newspaper and smack her in the nose while yelling NO. Eventually as the days passed she learned NO. She learned it was okay to be with chickens and that it was not okay to show her teeth to them or to paw at them or chase them.
Something that my mom taught me was tying her to a pole in the mornings. This pole is right in the middle of our coop. I would go in in the mornings, and tie her up there and pour corn and feed all around her. As close to her personal space as possible. Between her paws, near her tail, everywhere. She thought that if a chicken came near her and into her space it was okay to chase her. (Which it was so not.) So whenever the chickens came to her to eat between her paws she would start trying to chase them. Of course I was right there with a little spray bottle. You spray water at their face and they calm down. They hate it. She learned to calm down, and that it was okay for a chicken to come around her. It actually came to the point where I found her asleep as all of the chickens pecked around her. She could not be less bothered by them.
It will take 6 months, maybe more, maybe less depending on the dog. Some people hit the lottery and barely have to train the dog at all for it to become a LGD. Some people have to spend hours everyday. It depends on the dog. Anatolian Shepherds are very trainable dogs. I am actually thinking about getting another one.
This was my first LGD and I was freaked out thinking that I would have to give her away. I thought I would have to take her to the pound or to someone else. Things will go wrong, but in the end everything will be worth it because you will not have to worry about predators or strangers. I understand your worry. I was worried too.
Ever since I got Juliet I no longer worry about the coyote jumping the fence or the stupid fox coming by or the raccoon stealing our chicks. You will find that there are more pros to cons to having a LGD. All you need is to research a little more. Something that helped me was this blog. https://www.forloveoflivestock.com/...uardian-dogs-to-chickens-a-step-by-step-guide I hope this helps!

 

[Allsfairinloveandbugs]

@iwantmorechickens , in your first post back in april (which i didnt see until this week), the thing you said that stood out to me was that your dog was recently spayed and had to be caged/pent up while the incision healed. And then when she was finally let out it was as if she forgot everything. (Paraphase) My immediate thought was, at that point she had a lot of pent-up puppy energy & simply couldnt contain herself. And her "puppyness" overrode her limited training. (Limited because she was only 8 months old)

I wasn't clear from your first post if Juliet killed poultry before or after her surgery. Either way, its Always easier to prevent deaths than to retrain a dog that has killed. And the only way to prevent potential deaths from ocurring is 100% supervision until a lgd exits the puppy stage; otherwise the dog should not have access. I agree that 15 minutes daily training is wishful thinking. But lgd training takes place in conjunction with spending time with the chickens. I spend several hours daily outside with my flocks already, so devoting time to train a lgd is easy.

Since its been nearly 4 months since your original post, how have things been going with juliet and your poultry?