Processing question

[psychoroo]

Citation showing decapitation is being shown inhumane

http://www.petmd.com/blogs/fullyvetted/2010/nov/decaps_not_best-10542

The study boils itself down to the following:
"Viewed in toto, the almost inescapable conclusion from these facts is that decapitation is a painful procedure and that conscious awareness may persist for up to 29 seconds in the disembodied heads. This comports poorly with the strict definition of euthanasia"

According to the USDA Food Safety and Inspection Service guidelines it is an "egregious (i.e. outstandingly bad, shocking)" situation to stun an animal for slaughter and then "let it regain consciousness" You can read more about it here:

http://awic.nal.usda.gov/government...ces/federal-laws/humane-methods-slaughter-act

I use this definition because it is relevant to the discussion. We are talking about animals, not being stunned in the sense that somebody cut you off in traffic. Maybe you were confused about the topic and used an alternate definition?

And from the Australian RSPCA

Just prior to slaughter, animals are walked up a raceway into the abattoir where they enter the stunning box. This box separates the animal off from the rest of the animals in the raceway. Within seconds of entering this box, an operator stuns the animal. With sheep or pigs, this may be an electrical stun. With cattle, this may be a captive bolt. Both devices are aimed at the brain. Pigs may also be stunned using carbon dioxide. This stunning process ensures the animal is unconscious and insensible to pain before being bled out.

And from the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Resource Management:

http://www.publish.csiro.au/books/download.cfm?ID=29

"An animal has been stunned effectively when it is unconscious and insensible to pain."

According to http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/noawicpubs/avmaeuth93.htm

Stunning and pithing, when properly done, induce unconsciousness but do not ensure death. Therefore, these methods should be used in conjunction with other procedures such as pharmacologic agents, exsanguination, or decapitation to kill the animal.

and

In general, pithing is used as an adjunctive procedure to ensure death in an animal that has been rendered unconscious by other means.


Your study didn't have a few authors, it had two. Two is a couple, not a few. Mr. Appelet who is a large animal vet and Jennifer L Sperry who is a RN, not working in the animal world but a human hospital disease researcher. And did you read the last paragraph of your study?

"The low cost of single-use pithing rods, the simplicity of their use, and both the efficiency and efficacy in preventing stunned cattle from returning to sensitivity prior to death suggest that this technique should be considered not only in a disease control situation, but whenever a bovine animal has to be euthanized without exsanguination."

It is actually completely true, stunning, as defined by the USDA does produce unconsciousness, decapitation does not mean instant death, and you should have to preface your posts with "this is my opinion".

Now, have a wonderful day.

PS And to correct my mistake of "That study was performed by large animal vets who have the same Martin Appelt was a veterinary officer in the Austrian Army.
" it should read "That study was performed by large animal vets who have the same qualifications as Mr. Mettler, Martin Appelt was a veterinary officer in the Austrian Army."

 

[CrazyTalk]

Pithing a cow is very different than pithing a chicken.

A cow's brain is about the size of a baseball, a chickens is smaller than a pea. When you pith a chicken, you absolutely destroy the brain. When you pith a cow, you damage it.

 

[psychoroo]

Pithing a cow is very different than pithing a chicken. 

A cow's brain is about the size of a baseball, a chickens is smaller than a pea. When you pith a chicken, you absolutely destroy the brain. When you pith a cow, you damage it. 

And your veterinary degree came from where?

 

[CrazyTalk]

You don't need a veterinary degree to know that a study on one livestock species doesn't always apply to others. The knives used for pithing chickens have tips wider than the chicken's brain. When you twist, you destroy the entire brain.

So, where is yours from? Or are you going to require people to produce credentials that you yourself don't have?

 

[chooks4life]

Citation showing decapitation is being shown inhumane

http://www.petmd.com/blogs/fullyvetted/2010/nov/decaps_not_best-10542

The study boils itself down to the following:
"Viewed in toto, the almost inescapable conclusion from these facts is that decapitation is a painful procedure and that conscious awareness may persist for up to 29 seconds in the disembodied heads. This comports poorly with the strict definition of euthanasia"

Quote:

• Severing the spinal cord and the tissues immediately surrounding it is likely painful. 8,17,36
• Decapitation induces desynchronization of the EEG pattern (ie, conversion of HVSA to LVFA). 1,17–20
• The LVFA pattern is most consistent with a state of conscious awareness. 10,15,16
• Various noxious stimuli applied to animals in experimental settings induce desynchronization of the EEG pattern; the use of local anesthetics prior to the trauma can block desynchronization. 22,27,28,30–32
• The LVFA pattern seen in the brains of endothermic animals following decapitation can persist for anywhere from 8 to 29 seconds. 1,17–20
• No new data have been published to demonstrate that decapitated animals do not potentially experience persistent consciousness.

That's not proof. One paper among many which contradict it, saying 'likely' and 'potentially', is simply not proof, sorry.

According to the USDA Food Safety and Inspection Service guidelines it is an "egregious (i.e. outstandingly bad, shocking)" situation to stun an animal for slaughter and then "let it regain consciousness" You can read more about it here:

http://awic.nal.usda.gov/government...ces/federal-laws/humane-methods-slaughter-act

I use this definition because it is relevant to the discussion. We are talking about animals, not being stunned in the sense that somebody cut you off in traffic. Maybe you were confused about the topic and used an alternate definition?

Regardless of however many people you can find using an industry interpretation of the meaning of being stunned, which incorrectly combines the differing meanings of stunning and unconsciousness, they are physiologically NOT the same thing.

And from the Australian RSPCA

Just prior to slaughter, animals are walked up a raceway into the abattoir where they enter the stunning box. This box separates the animal off from the rest of the animals in the raceway. Within seconds of entering this box, an operator stuns the animal. With sheep or pigs, this may be an electrical stun. With cattle, this may be a captive bolt. Both devices are aimed at the brain. Pigs may also be stunned using carbon dioxide. This stunning process ensures the animal is unconscious and insensible to pain before being bled out.

And from the Standing Committee on Agriculture and Resource Management:

http://www.publish.csiro.au/books/download.cfm?ID=29

"An animal has been stunned effectively when it is unconscious and insensible to pain."

According to http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/noawicpubs/avmaeuth93.htm

Stunning and pithing, when properly done, induce unconsciousness but do not ensure death. Therefore, these methods should be used in conjunction with other procedures such as pharmacologic agents, exsanguination, or decapitation to kill the animal.

and

In general, pithing is used as an adjunctive procedure to ensure death in an animal that has been rendered unconscious by other means.

As I said, the industrial application of the term 'stunning' is combining the meanings of both unconsciousness and stunning.

It doesn't actually prove anything to repeatedly cite industry sources using the combined meaning when medical literature proves there are separate physiological states in stunning and unconsciousness.

Your study didn't have a few authors, it had two. Two is a couple, not a few.

Quote: noun
plural noun: the few

​

synonyms:
a small number, a handful, a sprinkling, one or two, a couple, two or three;

Mr. Appelet who is a large animal vet and Jennifer L Sperry who is a RN, not working in the animal world but a human hospital disease researcher. And did you read the last paragraph of your study?

"The low cost of single-use pithing rods, the simplicity of their use, and both the efficiency and efficacy in preventing stunned cattle from returning to sensitivity prior to death suggest that this technique should be considered not only in a disease control situation, but whenever a bovine animal has to be euthanized without exsanguination."

It is actually completely true, stunning, as defined by the USDA does produce unconsciousness, decapitation does not mean instant death,

The study you quoted about whether or not decapitation means instant death had no solid proof, though.

Also, yet again, the fact that medical literature documents stunning and unconsciousness as being separate states negates any livestock industry-specific combination of the separate terms.

Being stunned and unconscious are not physiologically the same thing; moreover, it's possible to feel pain while unconscious, and to not feel pain while stunned, although the reverse is usually true; the boundaries are not as perfectly delineated as you think.

Please, do a search on 'stunned not unconscious' and read the medical literature on it. Most enlightening.

Clearly, also, a lot of laypersons and those in the industries that are governed by animal welfare regulations use the terms 'stunned' and 'unconscious' interchangeably, but that doesn't change the facts.

and you should have to preface your posts with "this is my opinion".

That's twice now you've told me that so it seems I must point out the obvious: you're not in a position of authority to tell others what to preface their posts with, LOL!

Now, have a wonderful day.

You too.

PS And to correct my mistake of "That study was performed by large animal vets who have the same Martin Appelt was a veterinary officer in the Austrian Army.
" it should read "That study was performed by large animal vets who have the same qualifications as Mr. Mettler, Martin Appelt was a veterinary officer in the Austrian Army."

You could have just edited your post, but, whatever, at least now we know what you meant.

Best wishes.

 

[chooks4life]

Pithing a cow is very different than pithing a chicken.

A cow's brain is about the size of a baseball, a chickens is smaller than a pea. When you pith a chicken, you absolutely destroy the brain. When you pith a cow, you damage it.

Depends how you're doing it, and with what.

I didn't cite that cow study to say all pithing is inhumane; it seems that study was not understood in the context I provided it. Ah, well. I did state I found nothing on that site about chooks but seems people missed that.

Going by the threads on it, a lot of people on this forum have had bad experiences with pithing. And there are those that had good experiences with it too.

I'm not actually against pithing at all, provided it actually destroys the brain, I just saw some potential issues to raise especially regarding the idea of inflicting minor damage to 'stun' the animal.

The notion of doing damage to immobilize the animal prior to killing it is obviously not my idea of humane, and I think there's a lot more room for error than in simply chopping off the head, so newbies are more likely to fail to do it right the first time. Easy to see the neck to chop at it, but probing around with a sharp object inside their mouth clearly leaves a lot of room for error in the hands of a newbie.

But, whatever, I've had my say on this and the facts of the matter remain, so I'm done here.

Best wishes.

 

[CrazyTalk]

Pithing is definitely a finesse thing (and tough for beginners to hit the right spot) - the thing is - decapitation can be tough for beginners too - they hesitate, don't get through the neck, etc. So, my opinion? Whatever you're most comfortable doing - you're most likely to do that right, and it's most likely to be humane.