Pumpkin Hulsey Color Genetics?

[Poultriary]

The male in the picture would have to be heterozygous silver/gold. My experience with dark brown and columbian in combination with homozygous silver would produce an almost white bird with some black in the tail. I do not think the bird in question carries dark brown and columbian. Work by Moore et al. indicated one copy of Db on wild type will produce the breast color in the silver male. Moore and his associates believed there was a modifier present that causes the brown breast. It appears to me the male in your picture has a leaky silver color on his breast- it is nothing like the breast color I have seen in my gold/dark brown males that I have produced. I believe he is carrying one Db gene and the unidentified modifier. That modifier could be mahogany or a something similar to mahogany. Kimball when working with wheaten documented a gene he called dark that did the same thing as seen in the picture to the breast of wild type males.



Tim

Yes, Tim, I believe that is correct. Two sibling cockerels from the same cross had a blue golden duckwing phenotype. Females appeared to be blue SDWs with some orange/red coming through - probably due to being heterozygous for Db.

 

[Poultriary]

Sarimanok,

I have learned quite a few things since the time I've posted a lot of what you've been quoting. For starters, the dam I thought to be a Dun sport (a.k.a. khaki) was definitely a splash that carries at least one Db gene, with the Db causing the splash marks to resemble what one might expect from the comparable markings on a dun sport.

I also at one time believed the Dun gene was integral to the Pumpkin coloration. Now I believe it is probably just coincidental, thought I'll admit that I'm pretty much just completely given up figuring it out for now - thought I'm perfectly willing to listing to other folks theories.

 

[Poultriary]

The male in the picture would have to be heterozygous silver/gold. My experience with dark brown and columbian in combination with homozygous silver would produce an almost white bird with some black in the tail. I do not think the bird in question carries dark brown and columbian. Work by Moore et al. indicated one copy of Db on wild type will produce the breast color in the silver male. Moore and his associates believed there was a modifier present that causes the brown breast. It appears to me the male in your picture has a leaky silver color on his breast- it is nothing like the breast color I have seen in my gold/dark brown males that I have produced. I believe he is carrying one Db gene and the unidentified modifier. That modifier could be mahogany or a something similar to mahogany. Kimball when working with wheaten documented a gene he called dark that did the same thing as seen in the picture to the breast of wild type males.



Tim

So, back to this bird. A number of years ago at the Pacific Northwest Poultry Association Show (Spring show, if I recall), I saw a Serama with golden hackles over a ginger breast (don't recall it it was duck or crow winged). I've been trying to replicate that phenotype in the American Game Bantams and I took this fellow as a good first effort. My plan for this breeding season is to breed him over his half sibling, who appears to be one of the blue silver duckwings with the most red.

Mh is a plausible, as the SDW male had some red in the wing bow (similar to a Salmon Faverolle).

So, the question is can one breed a Ginger-breasted Golden Duckwing on a consistent basis?

 

[Henk69]

Autosomal red does not replace black.

 

[Pinoy Angelfish]

Autosomal red does not replace black.

I was thinking in terms of hair color, one person could have red hair and another black/dark brown. Perhaps there is a
more correct term than replace. Or maybe its a different autosomal red or maybe not autosomal red but something else?

The reddish brown color is pheomelanin right? The black is melanin so to me where there used to be melanin now has pheomelanin.

 

[tadkerson]

Genetics 101

Yes, dark brown is a restrictor of black- it restricts black to certain areas of the bird. The Db gene at the cell level produces conditions that favor pheomelanin production. I believe there are multiple genotypes found in pumpkin Hulseys. The birds do not have one genotype as found in most APA standardized breeds. Some of the birds I have seen have columbian and dark brown expressed on a wheaten E locus phenotype. I know this because I produced birds like them. Others carry blue or dun. I have seen some that I believe carried dominant white or were blue splash, Too much variation to pin down one genotype.

Some individuals will say mahogany is carried by salmon faverolles but it is not found in the breed variety. The research by Smyth along with Brumbaugh and Hollander (no other restrictors carried) indicated the breast would be spangled. No mahogany in the salmon faverolle. Brumbaugh and Hollander produced spangling on mahogany wild type birds.

I believe autosomal red and the Dk gene cause the red in the salmon faverolle. Salmon faverolle carry a gene called Dk or dark which acts as a weak restrictor in wild type but also enhances the red color to a dark red in gold duck wing (wild type). In wheatens Dk produces the cinnamon color of favoralles and BBR (wheaten) cubalaya. see previous post for the Kimball reference


As I stated in an earlier post, I produced birds similar to the male below. There were two version a dark and a light version. I was not able to test mate the birds ( not enough space) but I believe both birds carried some combination of dark brown and columbian.

This is the dark version of the male I produced. I do not have a picture of the lighter version. The lighter version had very little black in the tail.

I worked on producing a dark red rhode island red and the breast color of the male below approaches the color of the males I produced. Research indicates RIR are mahogany, gold, columbian restricted and wheaten. But some antecdotal crosses I did produced silver females that had red on their backs (see picture below). This would may indicate that autosomal red is also found in RIR.

dark rhode island red

The breast on the male below looks like a rhode island red breast.

proposed autosomal red female

proposed autosomal red in a male (silver laced wyandotte (female) cross) my notes were incomplete on this cross but I believe this is an expression of autosomal red.

He looks like he has a blue tail but he did not. I did not have any males that carried blue at the time. You can see the expression of the pattern gene in his breast- the restrictors he was carrying ( most likely DB and Co) were were hypostatic to the melanotic expression in his pyle zone..

Tim

 

[Henk69]

I was thinking in terms of hair color, one person could have red hair and another black/dark brown. Perhaps there is a
more correct term than replace. Or maybe its a different autosomal red or maybe not autosomal red but something else?

The reddish brown color is pheomelanin right? The black is melanin so to me where there used to be melanin now has pheomelanin.

Red hair in humans is so called recessive red, mutation on the extension-gene. Chickens don't have this extreme mutation on that locus. The mutation that comes closest is wheaten.

The replacing of black by red is a two step process:
1. columbian-like restrictor removes the black
2. autosomal red is able to express on the black-ridden areas.

 

[Poultriary]

"Some individuals will say mahogany is carried by salmon faverolles but it is not found in the breed variety. The research by Smyth along with Brumbaugh and Hollander (no other restrictors carried) indicated the breast would be spangled. No mahogany in the salmon faverolle. Brumbaugh and Hollander produced spangling on mahogany wild type birds."

So that's what's going on with the red singling on the breasts of RS Yamahas?

Where is Niclandia/Marvin at? He's the one who initially told me that the Mahogany gene was responsible for the Salmon Fivefold (with the Silver Wheaten base). But I've also seen the cinnamon BRB in Chiapas attributed to Mh.

 

[tadkerson]

"Some individuals will say mahogany is carried by salmon faverolles but it is not found in the breed variety. The research by Smyth along with Brumbaugh and Hollander (no other restrictors carried) indicated the breast would be spangled. No mahogany in the salmon faverolle. Brumbaugh and Hollander produced spangling on mahogany wild type birds."

So that's what's going on with the red singling on the breasts of RS Yamahas?

Where is Niclandia/Marvin at? He's the one who initially told me that the Mahogany gene was responsible for the Salmon Fivefold (with the Silver Wheaten base). But I've also seen the cinnamon BRB in Chiapas attributed to Mh.

I have read many different manuscripts written by researchers and the information can be found in the manuscripts. I do meta-analysis and compare the research articles. What I am confident about is what comes from the research. If I do present information that I have produced through my own research I will label as anecdotal or hypothetical because I do not statistically analyze my data or produce a large number of the birds to be confident.

The genotype of a RSY is a mystery to me. At one time I thought I had it figured out but I am not sure now. I would have to do some experimental crosses and see what segregates.

Both male and female have white spangling so there is a secondary color pattern involved.

It appears dominant white plays a part in the variety- Reeder claims the diluter is not dominant white but I am very sceptical concerning his claim, Reeder has not published his data so I do not put much stock his conclusions. I worked with dominant white for 6 years and saw all kinds of plumage. Look at the male below.

The problem I have is the following: assuming dominant white is found in the birds

1. the RSY is actually a black bird with red in certain areas (breast, back and majority of the wing) with gold spangling genetics ( s+, Db-Ml-Pg). The dominant white changes the black to white and the black spangles to white. Spangles can not be seen in the white areas. White spangles are present on the red. The birds would have to carry another melanizer ( do not know what that would be) that would make the hackles of both males and females black ( covering red spangling). They would have to carry a restrictor that would prevent the addition black in the red areas.

2. The bird is actually silver spangled S, Db-Ml-Pg with a gene or genes that add the red color. Dominant white removes the black spangles on white areas of the bird. Another gene or gene combination is adding the red to the birds.


Like I said, i would have to have a few SPY to work with a determine the genetics.

Tim

 

[Pinoy Angelfish]

Thanks Tim, yes there are different genotpyes that can express similar phenotype. Add to that the different names used for the same meaning (ie gold in the PI and pumpkin in US) and the same name used for different meanings. so it is confusing for me. But with the help from members here and in other forums there is less confusion better understanding now.

For the Pumpkin name, since it was attributed to the Hulsey gamefowl i am basing the genotype on what fowls were used. From its history, the Pumpkin was said to have been developed using Red Quill and Yellow Birchen.

Thanks Henk, with the two step process in replacing melanin with pheomelanin then Db and Ar go together.

So Pumpkin is Ar/_ Db/_ Id/+ or Id/Id this would be the minimum genotype right? Ar and Db coming from the Red Quill and Dun from the "Yellow Birchen" A true breeding Pumpkin (Ar/Ar Db/Db Id/Id)-This would have a different intensity of color compared to the het form, right? There will be a range.

Hopefully its final but with very few offspring i still need to see Db only without Ar.
A Duckwing, Partridge or Wheaten with Db.