puppy chicken killer

[G Wiz Ranch]

Jameberlin, SangaChicken, horsejody and PeepsInc - Now that is what I was talking about, thank you! Constructive advice, not just a "you can't" or "its wrong". Great job! Although the advice that you all gave is not the same, that is the point of the discussion, to get various ideas, not to bash people for those ideas. I am learning some new stuff. Thank you.

 

[PattiXmas]

I cannot believe some of you think it is okay and acceptable to beat a dog with or without a chicken attached to it!! If your dog(s) won't leave the chickens alone, then why did you get a dog??? Why did you get the chickens?? I have three boston terriers, they were around our chicks and are now around the full grown chickens. We don't let them around them unsupervised. If you can't be around your dog, crate him. The only thing that beating your dog is going to do is make your dog fearful of you. That could very well turn into an even worse situation. Beating dogs, how awful...

(and yes, I do know a lot about dogs!)

 

[PattiXmas]

One of the very basic commands learned by my dogs are the "leave it" command. Not only does this make them leave the chickens alone, but it also works with other things that might endanger my dogs. The best thing people can also teach their dogs is the "watch me" command. You should be able to have your dog's attention and should be able to get them focused back on you should they see something more interesting then you. If you cannot be with your dog at all times, then that dog must be properly restrained by being in a crate. When I hear about how "well, my dog escaped", then the fault falls back to the owner. What if you are gone, your dog gets out and attacks a kid or goes to your neighbor and kills their chickens? Is it the dog's fault or is it your fault for not making sure that your animal was properly restrained???

The other thing that people need to do is their research on a dog breed before they acquire their dog. Then they need to see the dog and see whether or not the disposition of the dog is going to actually work within their particular situation. You cannot get a lab or lab mix and assume it is going to be okay with your chickens without properly training the dog, a lab is bred for their instincts to hunt BIRDS.

 

[adoptedbyachicken]

Folks the bashing here serves no purpose. I'll be cleaning this thread up and I hope the good information here gets to stay rather than the whole thing going missing.

To the OP as you can see you will get many opinions on this. You have to decide for yourself what will work with you and your dog. However I will say this, I don't know of any puppy that can be left with chickens unsupervised. A pup of any size just playing with a chicken will unintentionally kill it, chickens just can't play rough like a pup. From that the pup will learn that chickens taste, well, like chicken. Rather good to a pup, a nice warm meaty meal. I'd never leave a pup alone with birds. However I would make sure the pup had plenty of time out with me and the birds where it was always rewarded for proper behaviour around the birds, and consistantly corrected for wrongful acts. From that it will grow up to respect you and your birds. How harsh you have to get with the repremand is greatly varied with the dog and yourself IMO.
Start gently and work upward to effect. As the dog matures give them opportunites to think they are unsupervised when if fact you are looking and gradually decide if they are trustworthy.

I know from experience that dogs can be trusted even after they have killed chickens as a pup or adult, I have 2 LGD that made mistakes that are their greatest defenders now. I can tell you a simple muzzle was the only training aid needed in the pup (it just gave me more time to have her loose while I did chores and rather than hurt the chicken if she pursued she just bumped them over) and my voice saying NO! BAD DOG! The other other I scruff shook twice and he never touched one again. They are loose 24/7 now. the adult dog was corrected in a matter of his first 2 weeks with me, the pup I kept under tabs till she was out of the play with everything that moves stage, for her that was until about 10 months but it can vary.

Good luck, hope that helps.

 

[Garden Gal]

I agree... emotions get going for some topics. I'll just add that many of the methods mentioned which have caused such emotional discussion would qualify as a felony in most states. That may give some credence to the fact that there are very humane and effective methods available to train a dog.

 

[2boxers]

Quote:
Two words I never thought I'd see together

Kudos to you for taking Buddy in. Im of a mind that most any dog can go from bad to good. My boxer did, thanks to advice I got here at BYC.

 

[AmyRey]

I think the determining factor in many people's opinions of training is whether or not they view their dogs as being "tools" (as was stated earlier in this thread) or as pets.

My apologies to the board for getting offtrack in this discussion, but never having had a "tool" dog myself, I just don't like to consider the fact that some people have a higher regard for the productivity of their animals than for their companionship.

Some people keep chickens tightly caged in row houses because doing so gets them more of a return on their investment. Some people keep livestock such as pigs and cows in overcrowded pens so that they can maximize their profits. And some people kick their dogs or beat them with dead chickens so that they'll be more useful farm workers. (Farm machines?)

Personally, I don't think any of these scenarios is how the Creator intended for these animals to live out their days.

In any event, it is not my place to judge and I am sorry that I have voiced my opinion where it was not asked for.

And I know this post won't stay, since it's not directly addressing the OP and his specific problem but I would hope the mods would leave it up long enough for the people I may have offended to take note of my apologies.

I'm still learning to abide by the rules.

 

[adoptedbyachicken]

Amy I'll leave the post up, nothing wrong with an apology.

While I agree with you on the conditions of living you mentioned I have to say that in my experience dogs with jobs are more happy and well adjusted, and they are my best companions too. In the years I did training for others and lots of problem solving for nuisance or destructive behaviors often the only 'cure' I needed was to give the dog a job that satisfied their instincts or drives. Training them to do something that the owner was willing to keep up, even just as a game took the frustration out of their lives. A bored or unfulfilled dog is beyond a handful and so often end up in euthanasia.

So while I don't think of them as either a tool or a machine I do expect and train them to be a helpful part of the ranch, for their health and happiness and mine. It's quality bonding time, and the companionship gets better with every hour at it! Even city dogs can have a job and be better for it, an activity or game that is done often and meets their drive needs.

I don't see a benefit to either the 'working' or the 'pet' label, they both have desire, drive and instincts, and are intelligent and bonding.

Simply, both are dogs.

So back to the OP's situation, I would suggest to him that the dog begin 'work' training, something he can do well at and feel satisfied doing rather than chase chickens, as well as learning to behave around the chickens.

 

[skeeter03]

You could begin training him this way - dont know for sure if it would work but I took my dog to obedience school and this was the teachers method of training.
get a choke chain and a good sturdy not to long leash. first teach your dog the sit at your side command oka "heal" once he learns to come sit at your side when you say sit or heal - you can then (be very cautious about this and prepared) have him on leash with choke collar on and have him sit beside you in the heal and let your chickens out and about around you (maybe try this with the door to the chicken run open first and do it next to the door) and if he so much as moves or whines growls whatever at the chickens give a quick pull up on the leash a sharp no and a tap on the top of his nose as fast as you can and tell him to heal. they do this to teach dogs to ignore other dogs that happen to be around and it might work for chickens to - I dont know and when he does sit undisturbed by the chickens for a bit then give him a treat and praise it up. work this into a training session with him. and maybe start off with like 20 seconds at first with the chickens around and work your way up to longer times.
This worked very well when we were doing it with other dogs - soon my dog would just sit with a dog inches away from him and he wouldnt mind
not an expert on this at all but maybe it would work if you have the time for it.
i will be trying this myself here as soon as I am done working this summer and have the time to do it a few times a day with my dog

 

[Jameberlin]

Quote:
Understanding dog psychology is as simple as understanding how a natural pack of dogs behaves and modifying your own discipline techniques to reflect that. Anyone who has ever studied anthropology, psychology or sociology knows that through thorough observation you can deduce any group's mentality traits, thereby understanding what will and won't work with regards to integration into said group and in the case of pack animals like dogs, putting yourself in alpha position and commanding respect and obedience. The idea that you have to have been a dog to know how one thinks is fallacy, if that were true there'd be no such thing as animal behaviorists, or criminal psychologists, for that matter.

It's been proven that you can deduce the way an animal thinks by research and studies (broadly, it's called behavioralism) involving their actions. Jane Goodall's entire life revolves around this principal, and you'd be pretty hard pressed to find any individual more versed in Chimpanzee behavior and psychology than her.

The point is, that once your recognize a dog as a dog, not as a person, you can begin to treat his behavior like an alpha dog would. This doesn't mean no touching, no reprimands, no discipline.. It just means touch a dog can understand as discipline, not attack, reprimands that are immediate and to the point and constant discipline. As dogs are pack animals, they're only truly happy and balanced when they have a place within their family group and understand their boundaries and their place on the totem pole. I think a key to having a balanced dog is to avoid anthropomorphizing the animal and treat it like nature intended it to be treated by those of it's own kind (with certain concessions, of course).

Anyway, if you don't agree that treating like with like is the way to go, that's your prerogative. It's worked for me.

Those are my thoughts on dog behavior, anyway...

To the OP: I think adoptedbyachicken is right on the money with the suggestion that a dog needs to be offered constructive outlets for their natural tendencies too.. People use this technique for working breeds all the time, retrievers are taken to the lake and made to bring in "prey", herding dogs and terriers do incredibly well with agility training, mastiffs enjoy pulling wagons etc. IMO, a dog who has been bred for a specific purpose is happier at then end of the day when he feels he's done his job. There are a plethora of information sources regarding extra curricular activities that help keep working class dogs happy and balanced (not to mention adequately exercised). The idea that a dog will be happy cooped up in the yard with only one or two walks a day and no mental or physical stimulation (read, challenges) is a bad one.. dogs have a strong tendency to become bored and destructive when left to their own devices, to say nothing of their tendency to become emotionally unbalanced over time.

Aaaaand lastly (soap box warning here), just because people did things a certain way in the past doesn't mean it's okay to do them the same way now.. Theoretically, we know better nowadays. I don't think society is "going down hill", and even if it was, it wouldn't be because people don't think it's acceptable to belt their kids anymore. I think that we have a tendency to think society is "bad" now because in the information age it's so much easier to be privy to all of these escaped closet skeletons we see dancing across news stations and websites.

As the verse goes: "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."