Puppy with bad knees.

[brandywine]

Smoky73, at age six you would not be (morally or contractually) entitled to money back for your Corgi's hip dysplasia.

Dysplasia is a developmental disease of genetic origin. In English, that means that a dog can inherit more or less of a genetic propensity to dysplastic hips, but the degree to which the dog will be clinically affected is highly determined by nutrition, exercise, weight, general management practices, and traumatic injury. (If an injury is severe enough, one really cannot assess a dog's hips -- this often happens when dogs are hit by cars.)

Most ethical breeders' contracts require that the pup be radiographed and assessed for dysplasia by 24 months (or earlier). If you don't do the diagnostics early in life and get the information back to the breeder for his or her quality-assurance program, you can't expect to get a refund on a middle-aged dog that is now showing radiographic or clinical signs.

Pups cannot be assessed at all prior to 4 months of age, and the preliminary radiographs taken at that time will only definitively detect the most severe cases. I don't put any credence in prelims until the pup is at least 12 months old, whether they are assessed by OFA or the more involved and expensive PennHIP process -- even though PennHIP claims to be predictive much earlier.

I take it that your Corgi's breeder did not check hips on her breeding stock, which is minimal due diligence, but still no "guarantee" -- one can breed two dogs with great hips on radiograph, great structure and movement, and still get a dysplastic pup. Again, you are just stacking the odds. There are no certainties in animal breeding. Dysplasia is polygenic, not a simple recessive or dominant thing.

I'd encourage you, though, to get a second opinion on your Corgi's need for surgical intervention, especially given her age.

A lean, well-muscled dog who has regular moderate exercise often does much better with anti-inflammatories and nutraceuticals (I recommend glycoflex, but there are many good products nowadays) than with surgery.

My first search and rescue partner radiographed moderately dysplastic at 24 months of age. Well, Lilly was already an operational SAR dog, and had no clinical signs at that time. With daily moderate exercise, regular work, glycoflex, and the power of her own enormous heart, she worked until after her 11th birthday -- a very long career for any German shepherd. She died at 13 1/2, of cancer, still able to get around pretty well. (And FWIW, Lilly came from a German working line -- ALL of her ancestors had healthy hips for many generations.)

 

[Featherland]

Well, I spoke with the breeder and he said he would take her back and refund our money or we could keep her and he would still refund our money if she didn't out grow it. He seemed surprised because he had taken her to the vet to be examined and was told she was fine. The vet did tell me there was a chance of out growing it. He also told me I could take her to a third vet and he would pay for it so I do think he is a reputable breeder.

 

[Chick_a_dee]

I hope you got a health gurantee with your puppy... If you did, you have a leg to stand on, if not then I'm not sure what you can do, you can talk to the breeder and tell them what the breeder said, but if you bought the puppy and didn't tell the breeder you wanted to breed it, you're going to be faced with some Bull.

 

[CrazyAcres]

very well said Brandywine- I couldnt' have said it any better myself.

After seeing the absolute hell several of my close friends have gone through with their dogs the past year, I cannot stress how important it is to do your homework before purchasing your puppy from a breeder.

It has taken me over 2 years to find a breeder I trust with a pairing that meets all of my requirements-and if she chooses not to do this pairing, ill keep searching. There's no guarantees, but it's better to stack the odds in your pup's favor.

A breeder should be a person you can turn to for the life of your pup for anything that pops up- good or bad.

 

[lengel]

Due to very strange circumstances, one of my four dogs is the result of a litter from two papered dogs of different breeds, both of whom have good OFA scores. The match was a mistake, as sometimes happens. The litter consisted of ten very healthy, extraordinarily well cared for puppies and I fell in love with one of them when I saw her at the breeder's training facility. She was so great so we adopted her. She joins several other, mainly rescued, animals in our home.

Long story short: she is the only one of the litter who has two bum elbows and one possible bad hip (she may or may not grow out of the hip dysplasia). Needless to say, she has been spayed. Her elbow dysplasia surgery was successful and she is in hydrotherapy for her second stage of recovery. She is also on four different kinds of supplements and can put weight on her worst leg now.

I fully expect that, over her lifetime, her vet bills, supplements, etc will cost us over $10,000.

The breeder would take her back in a heartbeat. But we took her because we love her and, frankly, we are her best bet in life.

If you are thinking about returning your dog to the breeder, do it now. She should not be bred even if she "grows out of it". If you do breed her, you must be willing to take back the entire litter if there are problems with their health. And then what will you do with five to ten puppies?

I used to foster and frequently took on the expenses involved. Litters can be very very expensive. I remember one four week old who cost me $90 when he had a bad response to the de-wormer. His gas was so bad that he was about to die from shock. The vet gave him an injection and he was just fine. And he was just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[ninjapoodles]

Quote:
Brava to Brandywine, for both this answer and the one about the Corgi. There is NO guarantee against hip dysplasia. I've never had it turn up in any of my dogs, but I'm aware that it can. Every dog we've ever bred has been fully tested for everything we can, and those results posted publicly with OFA and CHIC. You can search any of our dogs who's ever become a parent (and some who haven't) on the OFA's website and find full disclosure. BUT, the only conditions that you can definitively guarantee against are those few for which there are genetic tests available, like vonWillebrand's Disease and the prcd form of Progressive Retinal Atrophy.

As a lifetime "poodle person," an owner, exhibitor, and occasional breeder of these wonderful dogs, I implore you not to breed this girl.

I don't want to sound harsh or snobby, but honestly--any dog that is of breeding quality should be fairly difficult to get your hands on. My pups that are "pet quality" (they're still gorgeous, they're just not the best of the best of the best) are sold on Limited Registration, with a spay/neuter clause in their contract. The pups I've sold intact, we've retained co-ownership on, at least until the new owners completed the dog's conformation championship or other titles...sometimes longer.

Toy poodles are REALLY difficult to breed correctly and to the standard. A good toy should look just like the other varieties--not like a curly-haired Chihuahua. It should not have buggy eyes, a round head, short legs, or a bunny tail. They're much harder to come by than you might imagine.

I'm glad you had the dog checked out by the vet prior to breeding her.

 

[Featherland]

We have had her for 3 days. With the news about her knee I have no intension of breeding her now. Otherwise she does conform very well and that is why I purchased her. She is 10 weeks old. Now I need to decide if we want to keep her with the possibility of problems or to return her.

 

[arlee453]

Glad to hear the breeder is standing behind the pup as far as working with you on a refund, etc... that's nice to hear, and does indicate a high ethical standard.

 

[ninjapoodles]

If you do go back to that same breeder, ask for the OFA reports on the parents, which, for toy poodles, SHOULD include a clearance for patellar luxation. It should also include the parents' prcd-PRA status, and their current CERF results, at least. If you get an answer like, "Oh, our dogs are healthy, we don't have to do those tests," then run, don't walk, away from them and find a breeder who does the appropriate testing for the breed. They're not hard to find. OFA is a good place to start.

To qualify for CHIC status (Canine Health Information Center), a toy poodle must have at least the following testing done:

Progressive Retinal Atrophy DNA Test (with OFA evaluation)

Eye Clearance (CERF Evaluation, repeated annually)

Patellar Luxation (OFA Evaluation)

A Simple search on "toy poodles" and "CHIC" at www.offa.org brings 477 returns, in alphabetical order . You can also put in your breeder's kennel prefix and see which of their dogs has been tested and what the results were.

Here is just one random example from the first page of returns, showing what goes into a thoughtful breeding--this dog, a champion, not only has been tested for hip dysplasia, patellar luxation, and Legg-Calve-Perthes disease, but also for PRA, other eye abnormalities, and cardiac abnormalities. As a bonus, this one also comes from tested parents! So the good dogs ARE out there, and they're not hiding.

You can refine the search to your state, or any number of parameters. Hopefully the breeder you're working with is already listed on the site. I wouldn't bother with anyone who isn't, but I wish you a good resolution to your situation whatever you decide.

 

[Featherland]

Thank you everyone for your replies. Does anyone know of a supplement I could give her now for prevention or anything that could help minimize the possibility of arthritis and pain later in life since she is only 10 weeks old? What upsets me the most would be seeing her in pain.