PURE-PUREST BREEDS (The base of breeds)

[GhettoRoo]

Good evening, afternoon, or what is in your place now.


So my main question wich is the base breeds-PURE, of all today most popular breeds..
And the ledder down, like family tree, dunno.
And how from them are maked other breeds. I understand if I take ones breed Rooster and others breed Hen, I got something from both, my unique one.
But how is doing the putting more than two breeds..
So, for example take Vorwerk breed. Quote: (They were first shown in 1912 and are thought to have come from Lakenvelders, Orpingtons, Ramelslohers and Andalusians.)


So, If I want to make my first fresh Vorwerk. how do I get to it?
And if i want, for example 3 breeds in one, how do I combine them?
+ some extra info about breed crossing.. See in one post something like, this dont be good cross, because E- E+ or smth like this, what do mean these letters. And where to get them.
Thanks!

 

[chooks4life]

Hope you don't mind if I ask... What is your native language? I assume English is not your native tongue, and maybe you're using a translator program or application?

I only ask because while what I can understand of your questions seems interesting, I can't fully understand what you're trying to say there. I know Bing and Google translators give wildly differing results for the same sentence in different languages, even when you then put the same sentence back into them without anything altered they re-translate it into something different again. There's better browser translators out there though.

Best wishes.

 

[chooks4life]

Good evening, afternoon, or what is in your place now.

So my main question wich is the base breeds-PURE, of all today most popular breeds..
And the ledder down, like family tree, dunno.

So, if I understand you right, you're looking for information on the origins of breeds, or the starting breedings, and the progression into their modern descendants?

And how from them are maked other breeds. I understand if I take ones breed Rooster and others breed Hen, I got something from both, my unique one.

Not sure I understand this bit. ^

But how is doing the putting more than two breeds..

So, are you asking how breeds are made of more than two breeds, i.e. four-way crosses or when a new breed is made of many others?

So, for example take Vorwerk breed. Quote: (They were first shown in 1912 and are thought to have come from Lakenvelders, Orpingtons, Ramelslohers and Andalusians.)


So, If I want to make my first fresh Vorwerk. how do I get to it?

So, you're asking how to reconstruct Vorwerk using the original breeds it was developed from?

And if i want, for example 3 breeds in one, how do I combine them?

Not sure I understand this question. ^

+ some extra info about breed crossing.. See in one post something like, this dont be good cross, because E- E+ or smth like this, what do mean these letters. And where to get them.
Thanks!

So, are you looking for information on what those letters mean? I can find websites that have that info... Like this?
Quote: Example from the site above:

Black Mottled

E/E Ml/Ml mo/mo w/w p+/p+ r+/r+
Black Mottled, yellow skin , single comb​

Hope this helps.

Best wishes.

 

[GhettoRoo]

What is your native language? I assume English is not your native tongue, and maybe you're using a translator program or application?

It's not english, yes. It's far from it. ``Mana valoda izskatās šādi, ar zīmēm, kuras nav angļu valodā.`` U can translate it. But I`m not translate my sentences, mby some of words in google translate.
Ok, I will give a second try. The main thing what I want to know is how is made, for example, Vorwerk breed.. by points, steps... Wich breed crossed with wich, first and so.. If I want to make, make, the word: make isnt correct? Create? Create it.
And information about breed crossing. How to cross them.. If I want 3 breeds in one.. u know? I dont know, I think it`s almost good to understand, mby someone else take a try.

 

[GhettoRoo]

Yes i am looking for information on the origins of breeds, or the starting breedings, and the progression into their modern descendants.
Yes. how breeds are made of more than two breeds, i.e. four-way crosses or when a new breed is made of many others.
I am asking how to reconstruct Vorwerk using the original breeds it was developed from.
Yes, like this, letters. we ar on right way.

We can skip 2 sentences u dont understant, the answers you write from what you understand is from them too.

 

[gjensen]

The answers to your questions are not simple, if you are looking for information on the reconstruction of breeds.

First you have to have a good understanding of the breed to be constructed.

It is helpful to know what was used to create the breed, and why. What traits were contributed by using that breed?

Knowing a history of a breed would be helpful.

The how to do it would be based on your knowledge of poultry genetics, and what traits a breed contributed.

It is important to foresee what your problems and challenges would be at each step. This requires knowledge and experience.

Lastly, it requires your skill, experience, and dedication. There are not any step by step instructions.

It is easier to figure out how to make a color variety than it is to remake and perfect a breed.

Again. It requires a lot of money, patience, time, skill, knowledge, experience, dedication, perseverance, and housing. If you have all of these, you can figure the rest out.

These projects are easy to start and very difficult to finish. Starting and bringing it to any resemblance of perfection are two different things. It is a project that never comes to an end.

Many breeds and varieties have a known history. Some do not. Still you never know what is not known. You have to know what you are looking at along the way.

 

[chooks4life]

It's not english, yes. It's far from it. ``Mana valoda izskatās šādi, ar zīmēm, kuras nav angļu valodā.`` U can translate it. But I`m not translate my sentences, mby some of words in google translate.
Ok, I will give a second try. The main thing what I want to know is how is made, for example, Vorwerk breed.. by points, steps... Wich breed crossed with wich, first and so.. If I want to make, make, the word: make isnt correct? Create? Create it.
And information about breed crossing. How to cross them.. If I want 3 breeds in one.. u know? I dont know, I think it`s almost good to understand, mby someone else take a try.

Latvian is the language Google translate came up with.

Ok, so, you want to recreate or remake the Vorwerk breed, you are looking for a plan to follow step by step, if I understand.

I'm not sure what you mean by how to cross three breeds in one, maybe you are talking about a breeding plan to integrate the different breeds into the one? So, how all those different breeds became the Vorwerk, or how you can take 3 or more breeds and reconstruct the Vorwerk breed. (?)

As gjensen said, it takes a good idea of what you're aiming for, it's potentially quite complicated (though a good teacher can make any subject simple, just about).

I am not an expert on breeds at all, but I can find information on it... What that information is worth is up for debate. Seems to me there is lots of disagreement on what they are even made out of, lol! The following sources claim different breeds went into the makeup of the Vorwerk. I don't know which is right.

of chicken originating in Germany. Though it is unrelated to the German company which produces the Vorwerk vacuum cleaner, it is the only chicken to share its name with a brand of household appliance.[1] A rare fowl, it has distinctive black and gold plumage.
Contents

• 1 History
  • 1.1 Vorwerk bantam
• 2 Characteristics
• 3 Footnotes
• 4 References
• 5 External links

History

Beginning in 1900, poultry breeder Oskar Vorwerk began to create a medium-sized, utilitarian fowl with the belted plumage pattern of the Lakenvelder. The key difference in appearance would be the Vorwerk's dark golden base color, rather than the white of the Lakenvelder. Thus, his chicken is sometimes incorrectly called the Golden Lakenvelder, especially in North America. The Golden Lakenvelder, a plumage variety, is a separate breed from the Vorwerk.[2] Breeds used to create the Vorwerk included the Lakenvelder, Buff Orpington, Buff Sussex and Andalusian. By 1913, the Vorwerk was standardized. However, it never really gained widespread use, and is rare or non-existent outside Continental Europe. [3]
Vorwerk bantam

In 1966, a U.S. man named Wilmar Vorwerk of New Ulm, MN developed an interest in the breed, but it had not been exported to North America. Thus, he created a bantam version from scratch using Lakenvelders, Buff and Blue Wyandottes, Black-tailed Buff and Buff Columbian Rosecombs. European fanciers have also independently miniaturized a bantam Vorwerk. Though the large fowl Vorwerk has never been accepted in the American Poultry Association's Standard of Perfection, the American Bantam Association has recognized the U.S. version of the Vorwerk Bantam.[4]
Characteristics

Vorwerks are a dual-purpose chicken suitable for both meat and egg production. Standard size males weigh 2.5-3.2 kilos (5.5-7.5 pounds), and females weigh 2-2.5 kilos (4.5-5.5 pounds). However it is very important to note that the European bantam standards are different from the USA standards, which is understandable as they were produced using different breeds. In particular Bantam males in the USA are 765 grams (27 ounces), and females in the USA are 650 grams (23 ounces) but in Europe the breed is heavier at 910 grams for males and 680 grams for females. If you are showing in Europe it is well worth seeking out that standard rather than go by the USA version. Large Vorwerk hens are good layers of cream colored eggs, and will produce approximately 170 in a year. Bantams are also dual-purpose, but (like all bantams) lay smaller eggs and fewer of them.
Vorwerks are hardy, adaptable birds with economical appetites. In temperament, they are alert and active, but not necessarily flighty. In terms of plumage, their head, neck and tail are solid black, with the rest a buff color. The ideal of breed standards call for no black spotting in the buff areas, but in practicality this is very difficult to breed. Vorwerks sport a single comb, slate grey underfluff, and white earlobes.[5]
Footnotes

1. ^ (Graham 2007, p. 178)
2. ^ (Ekarius 2007, p. 57)
3. ^ (Graham 2007, p. 178)
4. ^ (Ekarius 2007, pp. 162–163)
5. ^ (Graham 2007, pp. 178–179)

References

• Ekarius, Carol (2007). Storey's Illustrated Guide to Poultry Breeds. 210 MAS MoCA Way, North Adams MA 01247: Storey Publishing. ISBN 978-1-58017-667-5.
• Graham, Chris (2006). Choosing and Keeping Chickens. 2-4 Heron Quays London E14 4JP: Octopus Publishing. ISBN 978-0-7938-0601-0.

External links

• Vorwerks
  
  at feathersite, including photos

http://www.the-coop.org/library/vorwerk.html

Quote: This one contains a pic and some info on one breeding plan they reckon is indefinitely sustainable. For mixing 4 or more breeds, with a planned outcome, well, that's so complicated I think you need to ask some experts for that info.
Quote: This may or may not be useful to you, I don't know.

Anyway, lots of people with far more knowledge than myself on breeding, on this forum, the forums I linked to, and other places... I hope someone with the right answers can help you out with a breeding plan and the right info.

Best wishes.

 

[GhettoRoo]

Yes. The info you gave me is absoulutely on right way. Thanks for your time. A lot of info, and kind a hard to understand well, if I want to dig too deep, I need to talk with someone from my country, who have some knowledge or experience in this.

So turn to this.
Information on the origins of breeds, or the starting breedings, and the progression into their modern descendants.

Game chickens will be te strongest, faster ones yes? Cuz some experts, had make them, and there's no better varities. So we will not find anyone else who can beat them?
I'm actually interesed about all breeds roosters, wich one will win the cockfight. I'm not sadist, dont understand me wrong.
Im looking for example make my Vorwerk cross with some malay chick, to just make him more athletic.
Is there a info what is the factor for better, stronger rooster? Wich breeds have the strongest beaks, legs, wings etc
Thanks.

 

[chooks4life]

Yes. The info you gave me is absoulutely on right way. Thanks for your time. A lot of info, and kind a hard to understand well, if I want to dig too deep, I need to talk with someone from my country, who have some knowledge or experience in this.

You're welcome. Hope you find someone in your own country who can help, it only gets more complicated the more info we try to discuss.

So turn to this.
Information on the origins of breeds, or the starting breedings, and the progression into their modern descendants.

Game chickens will be te strongest, faster ones yes? Cuz some experts, had make them, and there's no better varities. So we will not find anyone else who can beat them?

Sounds right, I don't know of any other breeds that are famous for being so hard to beat, if by 'beat' you mean in terms of fighting capacity.... As for sheer speed, athletic ability, and disease resistance or general hardiness, Games are often claimed to be the best, but I think any seriously neglected but thriving landrace breed will be extremely hardy, fast, and strong too.

Egyptian Fayoumis are claimed to be resistant to most diseases, and Africa also has plenty of native breeds (as they call them) which are also famous for being very, very tough in all ways, but they're not fought deliberately like most Game ancestors were. Games have definitely had the most work put into them out of all these other types, though.

I'm actually interesed about all breeds roosters, wich one will win the cockfight. I'm not sadist, dont understand me wrong.

Not sure I understand whether you're trying to ensure you have the overall toughest type of all breeds, or whether you're trying to develop the most tough breed for fighting purposes?

Unfortunately there's no real way to assess whether a Game rooster, or any other rooster, is truly the toughest or most able to win fights without very extensively fighting them, which of course is illegal in most places.

It's got more to do with the chicken's mentality and instinct levels than it has to do with the physical traits, within reason... So picking a certain breed because many people say they're good fighters won't work if the ones you get come from a docile family line. All things being equal, any reasonably fit and healthy rooster will still only be as good a fighter as his experience, instincts, and inclinations allow.

You can get very docile male Games, for example, and incredibly aggressive Silkie males, and even though the Game is bred for fighting, you couldn't verse a docile Game against an aggressive bird of any other breed fairly, the docile natured bird would get hurt or killed no matter what breed it is.

What I'm trying to say is that I can't offer advice on what breed has the most tough males; just because any breed is noted for having a certain trait, doesn't mean every bird in that breed actually has that trait, and in the case of fighting skill you can't find out without breaking the law.

The laws may be different where you are, I don't know, but here it's not legal and I can't advise you on it. If you want further info on how to assess Game roosters for potential, best to learn from the best, probably those breeders that still fight them for example in some places in Asia they still fight their Games. If you want to source breeding stock from there you could, but I don't see how this will help you develop good Vorwerks. I may have misunderstood your question's intent.

Any backyard breeder that practices a combined flock keeping method (like I do) has roosters mingling with other males, and of course whenever you have more than two chickens together, male or female, old or young, sooner or later there will be a fight. I breed for calm, nice-natured animals, so my males never harm one another. If you wanted to select for killers, it'd be just as easy, in fact many people have extremely violent hens and roosters, you'll often see them trying to rehome them on the selling or give away section of this forum.

But such aggressive birds don't do well in normal flocks, and if you want to develop a breed that can be used for eggs like it says the Vorwerk is, it'd be no use breeding the very most aggressive roosters and hens because pretty soon you'd have a utility breed that isn't fit for purpose due to being so dangerous to its fellow flock-mates.

Im looking for example make my Vorwerk cross with some malay chick, to just make him more athletic.
Is there a info what is the factor for better, stronger rooster? Wich breeds have the strongest beaks, legs, wings etc
Thanks.

Ok, sounds like you're looking for a certain body type, or appearance, in your future breed, perhaps?

You don't actually want to recreate true Vorwerks, then, but rather are you just trying to get their coloration type in a more Game fowl type bird? As in, create a new breed based on Vorwerk and malay, maybe?

Generally, birds with darker pigmentation have stronger claws, beaks, etc due to higher copper, sulfur, iodine etc levels, the same is true for all darker animals. The darker horns, hooves, claws, feathers, fur, etc are all stronger than the white ones partly because sulfur is one of the main building blocks of the connective tissues etc and darker pigmented animals have more of it, making their tissues denser, generally. Their tissues are also protected from sunlight and other potentially damaging external influences better by the darker pigmentation, so resist breakdown better. Any bird on a deficient diet, no matter its coloration, will have weakness of all systems and anatomy, though.

As for wings being stronger, you'd need a breed that is able to fly or close to it, as they will have stronger wings generally, and then you also need those birds to be raised in high coops or preferably free ranging, so they are fit and athletic and have incentive to use their wing muscles regularly. Birds raised in perchless coops for many generations can even forget that they have wings, basically.

You'd also need a bird known for having a strong heart and respiratory system, so I'd avoid commercial layer strains personally, the malay I would guess would give your birds a strong heart but if you're trying to keep the egg laying abilities of the Vorwerk then you would do better to source your egg laying capacity from heritage breeds rather than modern layer breeds as they commonly have heart and respiratory problems.

It's not going to be easy at all to breed a high production layer type out of malay type genetics or body types...

Are you wanting to develop a more ornamental breed rather than the utility breed type?

Best wishes.

 

[GhettoRoo]

Ohh, man, good information. I appreciate it.
In first posts I was talking about recreate Vorwerk origin..
About cross malay with Vorwerk was another thing..

thriving landrace breed. Which are them?
mby like this? Appenzeller Spitzhaubens- https://www.omlet.co.uk/breeds/chickens/appenzeller+spitzhauben/
Actually Im looking for this Breed, guess they genetics are stronger than lot of other breeds...

``overall toughest type of all breeds, or whether you're trying to develop the most tough breed for fighting purposes?``

For fighting purposes too yes. I guess there can be strong rooster, but he could lose the fight becouse of lack of fighting instincts?

won't work if the ones you get come from a docile family line. All things being equal, any reasonably fit and healthy rooster will still only be as good a fighter as his experience, instincts, and inclinations allow.

Yes. But every Breed has his fighting instinct, so wich ones had the best? There in cock fighting is no big mathematic, so if rooster is ready to fight he will. But the speed, kick strenght etc will play a key role.
Yes, docile one will not be as good as the one growed in harsh times.
But so. Both breeds, grow in same way. For example from chicken leg, to full growth, with brother roosters, so they will have a good sparing, etc..
Besides this all Im looking for rooster too, who actually can defend the flock from predators..
In our country descriptions the best description for this was for Rhode Island Red.. (Could kill intruder fox, dog)

We actually could chat about that, will black rock win RIR? and other breeds.

combined flock keeping method.

I had too, and watching differently chicken types, genes, breeds, I can see wich one isnt more agree with low pecking order, will stay till last. Had few 3.5 months oldies, which are stubbornly,
But Vorwerk was more tolerant than them. But the end better is that who is stronger. Enjoy watching this all thing..


You'd also need a bird known for having a strong heart and respiratory system.

If I'm talking about good rooster, I'm more to that he is strong, brave, fast, and good owner of hens too.
So, if my Vorwerk rooster had the genes, his ladies are good layers, he could be worse in some way than rooster, whichs breed lay less?

Hope you get some summary from all I wrote, It's kind about the same.
Strongest roosters.

Black coloured breeds could be stronger than others.... Good information. Will take a bigger look at this..