PURE-PUREST BREEDS (The base of breeds)

[gjensen]

Yes. The info you gave me is absoulutely on right way. Thanks for your time. A lot of info, and kind a hard to understand well, if I want to dig too deep, I need to talk with someone from my country, who have some knowledge or experience in this.

So turn to this.
Information on the origins of breeds, or the starting breedings, and the progression into their modern descendants.

Game chickens will be te strongest, faster ones yes? Cuz some experts, had make them, and there's no better varities. So we will not find anyone else who can beat them?
I'm actually interesed about all breeds roosters, wich one will win the cockfight. I'm not sadist, dont understand me wrong.
Im looking for example make my Vorwerk cross with some malay chick, to just make him more athletic.
Is there a info what is the factor for better, stronger rooster? Wich breeds have the strongest beaks, legs, wings etc
Thanks.

Malay are no longer known for being game, and mostly, are ornamentals.

Different breeds and strains of breeds have different styles. There is no best, because they were bred for different venues. The smaller lighter birds were often bred to use accessories, and have lightning speed. The Orientals tend to be bred for power, and longevity. Some of the lighter Orientals are more known for speed and athleticism while still having some power. Some of these are used to make grades.

Again it is a complicated answer. You have to figure these things out to know for yourself. There is no best. They run from one extreme to another, and all in between.

Games were used to help develop many breeds, because of their health and vigor. Most chickens that were spread worldwide were games of sorts. The selection for egg production etc. came much later in history.

 

[MrsBrooke]

Be careful discussing fighting on here.

From what I understand, this topic is taboo.

MrsB

 

[gjensen]

It is taboo, and you are right.

I have no interest in the sport, but it is impossible to discuss the history of poultry without discussing them. There is more history with the sport than without. Their influence on the breeds that we have is hard to overlook.

 

[GhettoRoo]

OKey, if It's so bad to talk about rooster vs rooster.. Then talk about Rooster vs predators..
One of my interests are about brave, strong ones, so when I let birds free ranging, I'l be sure there are a guard..
For example if hawk catch a hen, and cant fly away with it cuz she's to heavy for him, so rooster runs and defend it..

 

[gjensen]

Gamecock males get eaten by predators to.

 

[chooks4life]

Ohh, man, good information. I appreciate it.
In first posts I was talking about recreate Vorwerk origin..
About cross malay with Vorwerk was another thing..

Alright, that make sense now, thanks.

thriving landrace breed. Which are them?
mby like this? Appenzeller Spitzhaubens- https://www.omlet.co.uk/breeds/chickens/appenzeller+spitzhauben/

I've not heard of Spitzhauben being a landrace, but I'm not very experienced with purebreeds and simply haven't seriously looked into much information on many of them, especially those I'm unlikely to own in future. I doubt the average poultry keeper would be able to get landrace Spitzhauben, if they do exist, in any country but their country of origin.

When I said 'landrace' I meant something like the following --- although the term is also used for feral animals, or ones that are no longer domesticated even if they are descended from domesticated animals. Basically, it's a tame animal breed or breeds, gone wild or severely neglected according to normal animal keeping standards, and breeding according to natural inclinations rather than breed plans under human intervention, is what I meant. All the weakest die, since nobody intervenes, and after enough generations you get a landrace, which are often so hardy while still being productive that humans then re-domesticate them.

A landrace is a domesticated, regional ecotype;[1][2] a locally adapted,[3] traditional variety[4] of a domesticated species of animal or plant that has developed over time, through adaptation to its natural and cultural environment of agriculture and pastoralism, and due to isolation from other populations of the species.[3] Landraces are generally distinguished from cultivars, and from breeds in the standardized sense, although the term landrace breed is sometimes used synonymously instead, as distinguished from the term standardized breed[5] in contexts in which the word breed is used expansively.[5]

Hope this clarifies.

Actually Im looking for this Breed, guess they genetics are stronger than lot of other breeds...

``overall toughest type of all breeds, or whether you're trying to develop the most tough breed for fighting purposes?``

For fighting purposes too yes. I guess there can be strong rooster, but he could lose the fight becouse of lack of fighting instincts?

Yes, a physically strong rooster with a peaceful nature, lack of experience, or lack of fighting instincts will indeed often lose to a weaker but more aggressive rooster, or hen. The temperament is important as are other factors.

It's illegal to fight them in most countries I know of, so I really can't advise you there; there's a limit to how far we can even discuss this subject. I'm not into fighting them myself either, as you know I breed against this; I don't tolerate any violent animals because they are so counter-productive.

I am fairly sure this forum has rules against fighting them or conversations supporting that, precisely because it is illegal, but also because to many people it's morally abhorrent, too.

won't work if the ones you get come from a docile family line. All things being equal, any reasonably fit and healthy rooster will still only be as good a fighter as his experience, instincts, and inclinations allow.

Yes. But every Breed has his fighting instinct, so wich ones had the best? There in cock fighting is no big mathematic, so if rooster is ready to fight he will. But the speed, kick strenght etc will play a key role.

It's not so simple, you can't discuss it by breed; only by strain and individual.

For example, when I first got chickens, the region I lived in at that time had notoriously aggressive Silkie lines; everyone with big roosters of any other breed refused to get Silkie males, because they would kill the bigger roosters.

But most people on this forum, if they have both Silkies and big breeds, are worried about the big breeds killing the Silkies, and they think Silkies are usually docile.

Do you see what I mean? Nobody here says 'Silkies are extremely aggressive fighters' yet some of them are. Some, not all; you can only evaluate each family line of each breed, and each family member of these lines, on individual merit. You can get a breed of roosters that are supposedly aggressive, get two brothers out of a clutch of that breed, only to find one of them simply isn't aggressive despite being a purebred of that supposedly 'aggressive' breed; it varies.

A breed is made up of countless family lines, and the instinct levels, experience levels, and inclinations of every family line vary according to how their most recent few generations were kept and how breeding stock were selected.

Yes, docile one will not be as good as the one growed in harsh times.

It has much to do with individual character too, docile ones in harsh times may simply die, whereas aggressive ones are aggressive even if raised in 'soft times'.

But so. Both breeds, grow in same way. For example from chicken leg, to full growth, with brother roosters, so they will have a good sparing, etc..

Yep, that's how most people spot the aggression levels of each individual chook, by watching how they interact, and all things being otherwise equal the aggressive ones will always be more aggressive, without need for it.

I allow my animals opportunity to engage in normal fights, as does pretty much everyone who doesn't keep their animals isolated one by one, but I select against passing on the genes of animals that are aggressive without reason.

It's one thing to have a scuffle over hierarchy, when one male or female feels they should be dominant over another, but it's another thing entirely to have an animal that spends all its time running around instigating fights to the death. These sorts of very aggressive males and females are common enough in many breeds but I don't have any appreciation for them myself, they're a waste of life, space and resources for someone like me who keeps chooks for productive purposes (to supply my family), and also wants to breed the best ones on rather than lose them all the time in unnecessarily violent fights over social status. I like chooks that can sort out their problems calmly, without injuring one another.

Besides this all Im looking for rooster too, who actually can defend the flock from predators..
In our country descriptions the best description for this was for Rhode Island Red.. (Could kill intruder fox, dog)

This is another complicated area to try to answer. As with the fighting inclinations or lack thereof in any breed, predator defense is also extremely variable between individuals and there is no breed you can point to and say 'that one always defends against predators'.

There is no breed that reliably defends against predators; as gjensen said, Games get eaten too. At the end of the day, a rooster is still just a bird, and not a huge one like an ostrich. It's one thing for a rooster to be brave against a tame dog that's trained not to hurt chooks, and another thing for him to be brave against a pack of feral dogs that just want a meal...

No chicken can reliably protect the flock from all predators, because they are quite simply overmatched.

You somewhat commonly get extra-aggressive chooks of both genders (which are also often lacking strong instincts and/or life experience) and these birds will attack predators even if they have no hope of defeating them; these birds are often elevated to almost mythological status in the stories told about them and their 'bravery' (since stupidity looks indistinguishable to bravery in many cases) but really at the end of the day, they generally get killed, and fail to pass on much in the way of genetics due to not having the sense to run from a predator that they could not kill.

It suits some people's need for a 'hero' but to be honest, it does not impress me. True bravery is when an animal with intelligence fights knowing its risks, i.e. a mother hen attacking a hawk that's attacked her babies, or a rooster attacking a predator that has the flock cornered.

Necessary fights, in other words, require bravery; picking unnecessary fights only requires stupidity.

On the other hand we have unintelligent generalized aggression, for example as shown by those chooks that spot something new and a bit scary, and run over to risk their lives without a need to, instigating a fight that was unprovoked with a predator they often don't even have any experience with. I had one hen that would challenge vehicles, for example. Guess whether or not she's still alive, or even passed on her genes? (Nope).

A rooster who is smart enough to know when to pick his fights against predators is far more impressive than some silly boy who sprints into fights with anything that moves, whether or not he stands a snowflakes' chance in hell, to put it bluntly. Intelligence is a huge part of what determines their success in a fight, overall, you even see this in wild animals where a smarter but physically weaker animal often manages to dominate the less intelligent but more physically powerful animal one way or another, often through psychological manipulation alone.

Sheer aggression alone can inspire a respect in many larger animals, but once the larger animal learns to call the bluff, if that aggro but smaller animal has no real smarts to back its challenge up, it's dead meat. So, a rooster who always attacks dogs is really just playing the lottery before he finds that dog that will kill him.

We actually could chat about that, will black rock win RIR? and other breeds.

I don't know, sorry, I don't deliberately fight them, but as mentioned before, there is no breed that will reliably win every fight, since it depends on many factors.

combined flock keeping method.

I had too, and watching differently chicken types, genes, breeds, I can see wich one isnt more agree with low pecking order, will stay till last. Had few 3.5 months oldies, which are stubbornly,
But Vorwerk was more tolerant than them. But the end better is that who is stronger. Enjoy watching this all thing..

It is quite enjoyable watching them interact, for sure.

You'd also need a bird known for having a strong heart and respiratory system.

If I'm talking about good rooster, I'm more to that he is strong, brave, fast, and good owner of hens too.

Cannot be strong and fast without a good heart and respiratory system, that's the engine there, basically. Some breeds are known for often having weaker hearts or being prone to respiratory disease or weakness, and any chicken that knows it's weaker will be less brave almost as a rule.

So, if my Vorwerk rooster had the genes, his ladies are good layers, he could be worse in some way than rooster, whichs breed lay less?

Not sure what you mean there, sorry.

Hope you get some summary from all I wrote, It's kind about the same.
Strongest roosters.

Black coloured breeds could be stronger than others.... Good information. Will take a bigger look at this..

I would offer a caution here, if you're genuinely looking for info on fighting roosters, as gjensen said it's something you can't separate from discussion of many breeds, but supporting it, planning it, etc are all illegal and could get your account banned from this forum for all I know, many poultry forums have that sort of rule. No animal-baiting or animal fighting allowed.

I understand in some places it's a strong cultural heritage, and not about to change overnight just because the rest of the world doesn't like it, but many places take a very strong stance against even discussing it.

Best wishes.

 

[GhettoRoo]

About brave rooster, I was thinking those who will defend vs haws or weasels. Not necesary run to fox etc kind, not versus those one versus they dont have a chance 99%..

For example, when my free ranging flock get attacket by hawk and catch a hen, but she's to heavy, even if he catch rooster and he had him under, other rooster seeing that will run and defend it. Two roosters always will beat away hawks etc.. i guess. My rooster always hearing, when i catch a hen and she's screaming, he is runing from nowhere to see, but im curious about when all chickens are run in panic to shelters, do rooster go watch if someone get catched.. Intilligence in that way i think..
about those stupidity variants, thats another thing..

OKey, btw, theres a lot of good information from u, thanks a lot, good for my knowledge.. Will copy and save that..

About watching and seeing growing chicks, i can see how are they all character, from my hybrids too. And besides that I will make offsprings of them hoping they chicks take that character with him. Mby crossing the characters in one..

One of my plans is get a lot of rooster chicks, for example 12-14 roosters chicks, and watch how they growing, they hierarchy, sparrings. But from hens brood, not incubated. But it can be very difficult to do that..
But would put 2-3 roo`s from one breed yes. Mby one from both are in pecking order up, other last.. The characters could change, yes...

Other could be, just young roosters intodruce to my combined flock, and see how thats played out ther, from last pecking order struggle up..

So do I dont need to ask you this type of questions there, but in descriptions sometimes are writed actually how torelant each breed are.. But I'm asking about strenght to, so If i make my rooster my friend, I'm just want to strong one.. Tolerant all the way, but if gets anoyyed, could kick the *** like those stupidity types.
Vorwerk actually is very good, he's tollerant(sometimes too, but let's see how all plays out when he will be full grown).. now he could run away from small chicks, but not with strongers, bigger (higher ranked in pecking order) same as fear from biggest hens, + old rooster ofcourse, who's is feared from my Muscovy ducks, but my vorwerk dont run away from them and do faceoff.

 

[chooks4life]

Good luck with your projects.

They're fascinating livestock (or pets), and breeding them is endlessly educational, it's so fascinating to watch genetics play.

I've got a good cockerel I'm hoping to keep, he defends hens against attacks from native birds of a size he can tackle, but knows better than to tackle the Wedgetails, and he respects humans of all sizes and doesn't mistreat hens; he's very well mannered.

Four of my most instinctive, oldest hens highly approve of him and seek his company out, which is always a very good sign, going from past experience with those hens... They've got a keen instinct for a worthy male, and they've not been wrong yet; some of those hens are pushing a decade old now and they've known hundreds of roosters in their time but have been very judicious with their choices of mates. Normally those hens are the most in demand with roosters, it seems the more instinct a hen or rooster has, the more attractive it is to the opposite gender, and these four hens are definitely my most instinctive.

But he has two useless and violent brothers, and one brother that's so high anxiety he's in a constant state of panic even without provocation. So I'm wondering how much of that is a family trait, and how strong; only way to find out is to breed him a few times.

A chook that's part of a breeding plan is only as good as its offspring, so if this promising-looking male's offspring aren't any use, he'd better make a pet of himself or show he has other qualities worth keeping him for, or he's going to be culled... But, looking at him, I think he'll possibly be one of those males I keep long-term for social cohesion, to help train up the younger males in how they should act, and help keep the peace. I've kept non-breeding males before for various reasons including the male in question being a good alpha male, or being a good father figure. Social peace is valuable and much of it is learned.

Best wishes.

 

[Henk69]

The vorwerk color is the same as the lakenvelder color except for the gold groundcolor, which is sexlinked.
Using 4 breeds was pure ignorance of the time.

Genotype e^b/e^b Co/Co s+/(s+) plus recessive melanizer (charcoal?)

For roosters contamination with e+, eg e^b/e+ would still give a similar color. Not so in the hens.

 

[gjensen]

The vorwerk color is the same as the lakenvelder color except for the gold groundcolor, which is sexlinked.
Using 4 breeds was pure ignorance of the time.

Genotype e^b/e^b Co/Co s+/(s+) plus recessive melanizer (charcoal?)

For roosters contamination with e+, eg e^b/e+ would still give a similar color. Not so in the hens.

What two breeds would you recommend?