purple male x bronze hen genetics.

[pedda munnangi]

I have not bred this combination.myself . Hence, I do not have any personal experience to share with.Based on certain fundamentals in pea genetics, Whether or not , a purple hen in this case can carry a bronze gene, to be called " a purple split bronze hen" is our question. Some times , there exists ?? a technical possibility, It may or may not happen in reality. That is nature, we are trying to learn and understand from scientists with some personal and practical experiences. Thanks for sharing your opinions , hypothesis, and knowledge.

 

[SuperPeacockman]

A purple hen carrying the bronze gene is totally possible.

 

[Rosa moschata]

Hello again, again. And again, feel free to email me at [email protected] if you have other questions.

Breeding a purple male with a bronze hen produces male chicks Males looking indiable but actually split to purple and bronze, purple gene on one chromosome and bronze gene on another chromosome. The female chicks have one purple gene on one Z chromosome ( that is the only Z chromosome it possess ) and the other is a sex chromosome W which does not carry any genes. Hence it is a purple. If we have to say that the hen is " a purple split bronze" ?? Which chromosome the bronze gene sits on ???? Is it the Z chromosome ?.. In other words , Is there a binding site on the Z chromosome for the bronze genetic nucleotide to fit in, besides purple, By the by neither of these are pattern genes. and both are color mutations from India blue though.

The Z and W are the sex chromosomes in birds. The other chromosomes (somatic chromosomes) are generally given number-names, which will vary according to the species. I don't know offhand how many chromosomes peafowl have, but I do know that many birds have both macro (large) and micro (small) chromosomes, often rather high in number. When you ask "Which chromosome the bronze gene sits on?" all I can say is that it's one of the somatic chromosomes -- thus anything other than Z or W. Until someone decides to trace the genome of peafowl, we won't know for sure on which chromosome it lies, other than that it's not on Z or W, which we've determined from breeding.

From breeding purple male to bronze hen, the male would carry a purple gene on one chromosome and a bronze gene on the other (purple on one Z, bronze on the other Z). Hen would be the same (purple on the Z, bronze on the W). Bronze is not sex-linked, therefore it can be passed on by the Z or W chromosome. Its not that the W does not carry the genes for colour. In purple (and other sex-linked peafowl) the purple gene on the male chromosome is dominant over any colour that is carried on the female chromosome.

No, Bronze is not carried on the W. If it was, we couldn't have Bronze peacocks, since they don't have a W chromosome. Mutations that are not sex-linked are carried on chromosomes OTHER than Z or W (or X or Y in mammals). Which one? I dunno.....but the only concern in breeding is whether two non-sex-linked mutations occur on the SAME chromosome. If that's the case, then it would require crossover to combine those two mutations. That's why I thought it was odd that the first attempt at combining colors was done using two mutations on the same chromosome (sex-linked Purple and Cameo). It'd be MUCH EASIER to try it with either one sex-linked mutation and one somatic mutation, or two somatic mutations.

So, the W sex chromosome can carry any colored or pattern gene but not the other sex linked genes, Is that the reason, why a purple hen can not be split to a Cameo ? correct.

Thus far, there are no known color or pattern mutations in peafowl on the W chromosome (or, at least, that I've ever heard of....certainly none of the ones at the UPA site are on the W chromosome). As far as planning genetic crosses goes, in peafowl, think of the W as simply the non-Z placeholder.

Yes, that is correct. Sex-linked genes seemed to be attached to the male chromosome only, and do not transfer. However, just as we see some sort of crossover effect for the origin of peach, it may be one day that a non-sex-linked version of purple, cameo, peach or violetta may arise due to mutation of the chromosome, just not in the same way.

It's possible that another independent mutation can occur which gives a similar phenotype to the sex-linked mutations, but it won't be the same mutation. Take cockatiels, for example. Two similar-looking mutations are Cinnamon (sex-linked) and Fallow (somatic recessive). Both cause a fading of the melanin pigment to brownish hues, and without looking closely at the eyes (Fallows have red-tinted eyes), it may be hard to tell them apart (Fallows lean more brown, Cinnamons lean more yellow, but there's a wide range of in-between). But they are separate mutations, and indeed one could breed a Fallow-Cinnamon. And it's not a case of a gene leaping to another chromosome. Remember that genes work to produce ingredients which get used in many body processes, usually in tandem with other ingredients, and usually in sequences of production. To get the Normal version of pigment on a feather requires many ingredients and many steps. A mutation is a mistake in one of those ingredients used in one of those steps. One could make two different mistakes at two different steps and end up with a similarly reduced product, but the genetic causes will be different.

Is it possible to have another binding site for a bronze genetic nucleotide to fit in, on the Z chromosome of this hen ?? besides the presence of purple gene which is already there. Then we can have a bronze split purple hen, at least technically. I have not come across the names like Opal split cameo or jade split purple.My thinking is getting crazy.

Arbor made an error -- Bronze is not on the Z, nor is it on the W. Genetically, arriving at a Purple Bronze uses the same process as arriving at a Purple Black-Shoulder -- you're combining a sex-linked mutation with a somatic recessive mutation. Cross the two, get F1 offspring carrying both (or visual to Purple, in the case of hens), and then cross the F1s together until you find chicks which are visual for both. It's basic Gregor Mendel genetics.

Technically, you could achieve a Purple bronze (indigo as clifton Nicholson Jr has called it). Two bronze genes and one purple gene on the hen, and two of each coloured genes on the male. I'm currently attempting several of these types of genetic combinations. One has already been produced, but I need to do some more test breeding to confirm the actual genetics behind it. 2014 will be more productive for me, as I will have 4 combinations of breeding age. Clifton also said that he had a bronze charcoal male that was supposed to be three last year. I had not received any further communication from him in about a year. I was hoping for a pic or two!

Yep.

I don't think the w chromosome carries the bronze gene at all, if that was the case only hens could ever be bronze! Of my understanding of genetics is correct genes don't really just flip flop around like that (occasionally there are things like jumping genes but that doesn't happen regularly). Sec linked genes are all on the z and the other genes can be on any of the other chromosomes peafowl have (not sure how many).

You're right.

Since bronze is not a sex linked color, male or female needs two copies to express the color. Whether the w chromosome carys a bronze gene or not is a question. Even If it does, the purple gene on the Z chromosome dominates. Hence, it will be a purple split Bronze. On the other hand , the presence of a bronze gene on the Z chromosome besides purple, then, I think it will be a bronze purple hen, a new color like Arbor indicated. All the zillions of cells in any peafowl carry exactly the same genetic code patterns on all the paired chromosomes present in each cell's nucleus.Different chromosomes in different cells do not carry varying genetic material.

No, the hen will be Purple split to Bronze because she requires only one copy of Purple for it to be visual (since it's sex-linked, and she has only one Z) but needs two copies of Bronze (since all the other chromosomes are in homologous pairs, in males and females -- Z and W in females is the ONLY exception). Purple is not dominant over Bronze.

I agree with Pedda, I think you may have just contradicted yourself? First statement and last statement. Bronze is not sex-linked, therefore it can be carried on both the z and w. A hen needs two bronze genes to be bronze, therefore one needs to be on its z chromosome, while the other is on the w chromosome.

No, Arbor, I'm sorry, but he's correct. I think you are misunderstanding something. It's ok, it's Spring.

No I didn't contradict myself it's not sex linked so its not carried on either of the sex chromosomes at all. It's carried on one of the other ones! If it was carried on the w only females could ever be bronze and if it was carried on the z it would be sex linked so it isn't carried on either.

Yep.

 

[Arbor]

Yes, I was incorrect. I was stuck in the middle of two separate genetics discussions both here and with another gentleman overseas. My bad