Questions about Merek's survivors

[Theclassicalfarmer]

My husband just bought a chicken tractor and the 15 hens (10 RIR and 5 Dominiques) and Dominique rooster that came with it. We really just wanted the tractor but didnt mind the hens.

The problem is the Dominiques are the survivors of a flock that had Merek's. I am planning to get rid of them and disinfect the tractor. The RIRs were bought vaccinated to replace those that died.

My questions are:
1. Can we keep the RIRs and add vaccinated birds or do we also need to get rid of the RIRs?
2. Are the eggs of the RIRs safe to eat?
3. What is the best thing to do with the Dominques? Cull them? Give them away, telling the person about the Merek's?

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Hi, welcome to BYC!

All them birds are NOW and forever carriers of Mareks. Even your reds, they're just less likely to get symptoms and die from it.

My state poultry vet at UC Davis says Marek's is cinsidered to be in EVERY poultry environment and even NPIP certified flocks aren't tested for it or required to report it. It could be brought in by any wild bird at any time.

As far as I know it's on your land now. You can add vaccinated chick... and they may still get Marek's but won't develop the paralysis that comes with it.

All the eggs are safe to eat. Marek's does NOT transfer to eggs (even hatching chicks) and is NOT zoonotic (can't pass to humans).

Sometimes culling does mean giving away. If they have any laying left in them I would sell or give away and yes... if you desire include disclosure. It's probably the right thing to do. And any educated person can determine if they the risk is too great or not. I hope to be breeding for resistance. Those Dominiques are showing resistance though if they haven't been vaccinated... it could still rear it's ugly head an take any of them at any time. Sometimes stressful events like heavy worm load, predator incident, or molting can bring it on. I know it can be overwhelming sounding.. but it isn't nearly as scary as it seems.

In other words... get rid of the Dom's if you simply don't like them. They aren't going to change ANYTHING for the Marek's concern. And get your future birds vaccinated if that's what you find appropriate for your situation. I don't get vaccinated birds. Culled (via death) two juveniles that presented with Marek's and have had 82+ birds since then. No more deaths.

My larger concern would be spreading things that hadn't presented like respiratory infection, MC/MG, IB... that type of stuff.

On top of that if they are tumor free... which they are, as indicated by lack of paralysis.. they are considered SAFE for HUMAN consumption. But if you decide to process and don't wish to consume maybe you can offer them up for someone else... even as pet food.

The best all in one and very accurate information place on Mareks that I've seen.... Experience is (sadly sometimes) the mother of all teachers...
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/the-great-big-giant-mareks-disease-faq.66077/

Hope this is helpful. I know it's a serious subject.

But I also hope you find as much joy in your flock as I have mine. It has far outweighed the many challenges and heartbreaks.

 

[Theclassicalfarmer]

I talked to the previous owner and my husband was a bit confused. The Vaccinated RIR’s are the ones that had Marek’s. The owner said he purchased 30 from someone at an extension office who assured him they had been vaccinated. 4 died from Marek’s about two years ago.
The Dominiques, which turned out to actually be Barred Rocks when I saw them, are the new ones they bought to replace the ones that died. They aren’t sure if those were vaccinated, but they are about a year old and seem healthy.

Everything online is either terrifying or “don’t worry it’s everywhere.”

We are keeping them far away from our existing flock and splitting the chores so we don’t risk carrying anything to our chickens until we are sure they do not have any other illness and until we figure out what we want to do about these hens.

I know once exposed to a chicken with the disease they become carriers for life, but are the Barred Rocks considered carrier if they only came in contact with vaccinated survivors?
Knowing that it was vaccinated birds that died makes me want to breed for resistance and not simply rely on vaccine, but I’m not sure if it would do any good with these sets of hens.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

are the Barred Rocks considered carrier if they only came in contact with vaccinated survivors?

First, funny that they are barred rock... I actually like them better.

See my issue with the vaccine and why I don't offer it as a breeder is because the efficacy only counts if it was administered correctly.

To me the vaccine masks the issue not solves it. And the main reason I think people should get vaccinated birds if they aren't equipped to deal with the possible passing of (however many) birds and if they don't plan on breeding and always vaccinating any chickens in the future so they just don't have to worry about it. There was a gene identified that did correlate to the resistance (I'm lacking the real info). I breed for vigor and don't breed weak birds forward. For me, I can face that loss. I cull immediately now if I see symptoms. I know it's there but I'm limiting the shed as much as possible. And giving remaining birds a chance to... hopefully not be overcome.

I ordered chicks... had to decide to spend the measly $4.50 to vaccinate all 16 birds. It was a tough call! I decided NO.

Everything online is either terrifying or “don’t worry it’s everywhere.”

It's both.. terrifying and everywhere. But so is e-coli and car wrecks and other things that I don't worry about everyday. Depends on our focus.

It's especially terrifying for people first who think it can happen to them that are faced with the possibility of loosing their whole flock and have never faced any chicken disease or death before, and maybe even children with broken hearts at stake. For me Marek's is the LEAST of my concerns. Since it IS considered "ubiquitous" it isn't something I can change much. People don't depopulate their flocks for Marek's the way they do for some other diseases, that I guess you actually can get rid of.. (no experience their either).

I just do my part by not inviting extra wild birds to feeders and not bringing in started birds from outside without quarantine (to the best of my ability, it isn't quite good enough). Provide good nutrition and secure housing with adequate space and good parasite control.

I can't help but wonder... if those original 4 birds that passed were vaccinated for Marek's or did it happen to be for coccidiosis, that some places offer? Also wonder what the alleged symptoms were including age and if necropsy was done to confirm cause of death. Not because I don't believe them, just because people make mistakes all the time! And one missing word in the sentence can be a lot of detail... vaccinated for___? One more possibility.. seems like Marek's vaccinated birds might not supposed to be exposed to outdoors for at least 6 weeks. Verses I have my chicks on pasture as early as possible starting with bringing in flock yard soil WHILE the hatchlings are still young before going out full time. Or sometimes they get a couple hours trips to the outside, depending on weather as early as 3+ days old. So if that person had vaccinated but not followed protocol (similar to parvo virus vaccine), then they may actually be just as susceptible as if not vaccinated at all. So many variables it's hard for me to assume what really happened.

Age related.. I would keep the rocks and sell off, process, or give away the reds. They should still lay again for the next season for someone to get their value.

I don't know if breeding for resistance has any merit or not and how I will know if it's working without doing genetic testing... but I'm gonna try. One of my breeds, Silkies... are supposedly more susceptible. It was indeed 2 Silkie crosses, not from own stock.. that I culled around 9 weeks old. No symptoms developed during their 4 week quarantine. And others with them thrived like nothing ever happened. Some birds will have stronger immune systems than others. And some strains are more horrid. As cold as it sounds, survival of the fittest is real. Though I will try to set every bird up for success and I never allow for bullying.

Anyways it is a VERY personal choice. And my choice may change in the future. I have some experience with it but am VERY far from expert. Thank you for letting me share this journey with you. I'm sure you will get lots of valuable information and support from this site. And like you say, so many mixed opinions. Just do what seems to make the most sense for you at the time with the knowledge you have. And if you learn something new, switch it up if need be. So far, keeping chickens has been an ever growing and learning process for me. Which I do for fun.. it keeps me better than not physically and emotionally. Once you get settled in it should be more therapeutic.

I guess... one final note (even though that was supposed to be the last line), ALL chickens unless severely overran with parasites will appear pretty healthy... until they suddenly seem a little off and are almost dead the next day. Chickens are prey animals and as such will hide anything they can just as long as possible, in order to keep from becoming an easy target for predators and even members of their own flock who may try to up their place in the pecking order or even alienate/eliminate them in order to keep disease out of the flock. By the time it shows... it's usually bad, take action.. is the first point here. The second point is looks can be deceiving. As you spend time time with your flock you will start to become familiar with what's normal and what isn't for them.

Sorry so long! It really isn't as complicated or scary as it sounds and seems. Just seek help ANYTIME you need, here. And don't be afraid to get a second or even third opinion on what your neighbor, friend, feed store, vet, or even I told you! They're your birds now, follow your gut.

Good luck and best wishes for a healthy, thriving, and thoroughly enjoyable flock!

 

[Theclassicalfarmer]

First, funny that they are barred rock... I actually like them better.

I like barred rocks as a breed more than I like dominiques, so I didn't mind when I saw they were rocks. That being said I have a 5 year old Dominique who rules the roost and is still steadily laying so I'm impressed by her.

And one missing word in the sentence can be a lot of detail... vaccinated for___?

I did wonder if maybe they weren't actually vaccinated for Marek's, but from what I could gather, once the birds died and the necropsy came back Marek's they talked to the breeder and were vaccinated for Marek's.

My husband is thinking we try breeding for resistance and use the survival of the fittest mentality. He thought it doesn't seem to be a coincident that Marek's tends to show up in younger birds, as if to weed-out the weak early.

ALL chickens unless severely overran with parasites will appear pretty healthy... until they suddenly seem a little off and are almost dead the next day.

That is one thing I wish someone had told me before I ever got chickens. We had to learn this the hard way, and then again with goats.

I swear every time I arrogantly think I have chicken keeping "experience," something happens that throws me for a loop. This is by far the biggest thing we have dealt with and i'm so glad to have found this site. We don't have a lot of people around us to help, so far we have learned from books, Google, and experience (which has always been the hardest lessons to learn).

Thank you!