Rabbit raid?

[dewey]

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_18709635

The article states that a motion was filed yesterday to stop the neutering of her rabbits, and that the matted rabbits were rabbits that had been turned into her by people that no longer wanted them and that were bound to wildlife rehab for raptor consumption.

If matted fur is considered cruelty then it's odd that wildlife rehab facilities supported by the same groups that raided her barn and which feed live rabbits to raptors and other animals is not considered cruelty. Have most folks seen how that goes down with a recovering raptor...it's not pretty and it's not quick nor humane by many people's standards...yet that's ok with AC and other agencies. (By the way, I have nothing against wildlife rehabs and also donate rabbits myself to them, and the rabbits are kept in a freezer until they pick them up and live ones that they take that are not needed alive are killed by them and also kept in their freezers.)

It is odd that out of 200 rabbits that there's 12 pics that have surfaced and there's standing charges for 25 counts, probably multiple charges for individual rabbits.

In my mind there's no excuse for built-up unsanitary conditions and so she obviously needed more help keeping up with the program in place. Tray and solid floor cages require much more work than shute and other systems. Just one partial day of a couple of tiny squares of wire becoming clogged can lead to a quick (small) brown volcano if several rabbits are housed together, no less a couple of weeks of it. If the few dirty cages they showed were used for quick temp housing in a pinch it could be somewhat more understandable that build up might have gone unattended, but not excused, and should have been something that was cited for immediate correction and followed up on, but not cause for taking all the rabbits...but a breeder of that many years knows how unsanitary that would be even for the shortest amount of time. Most would muck out from under open wire cages without trays 2-3x a year.

Days that I'm under the weather from these dang cancers and need to have others tend to my barn chores, I have a check list for them and I ask questions (not ungrateful for their help and we have an exchange set up for it, but I know how fast things can change in just a day as do we all that have livestock) about specific things. There's grill scrubbers hanging out there to be used to scrape even 1 cling-on on the wire to nip anything in the bud and I have people muck shutes for me when I'm not able (rarely)...but if she had help attending to them, which may well be the case, they were not following up on tasks...ultimately the growers responsibility but I can see how things could get out of hand in a just a few weeks.

Someone asked about rabbits & drinking water...I always keep water in front of my herd but in warm weather rabbits will often drink next to nothing during the hot part of the day and drink mostly in the evening or at night (opposite of what most would think). If water tubes were pulled or were stationed at the back of cages that's something that would not show in the pics. Open dishes like shown in the pics are mostly used for treats or toys and not water. In just 1 day any dish can become quite soiled as they like to use them for bathrooms.

 

[debilorrah]

Dewey, I agree that there is still alot more to this story than we are receiving from the media. And media is slanted. I still support her until I know the entire story, however, the condition of those cages was from a lot longer than just a few days. Even if it was housing for a just a moment, there is no way I personally would have a cage that looks like that.

Rabbit breeders KNOW how important it is to keep cages clean. Even semi clean. Those cages were deplorable.

The water issue - you are correct. My rabbits rarely drink during the day at all, but we have it there. And have to change it at night because the water is hot. Oh well at least they have it.

Again, I only have 10 rabbits, not 200 as she did. Many of her animals look well and healthy, not like they lived in those horrid cages. The ND, it appears to me was not in that cage very long at all (still disgusting), and the angora, well, I have them and mine have never looked like that unless they were in the process of blowing their coat. Those mats appear wet to me, which is completely reasonable given the length of their wool.

 

[punk-a-doodle]

I had a pet (indoor) English angora, and I would occasionally let him grow out and blow his coat so I could gather his wool...though I lost it all in the move, darnit. Someone out there got a nasty shock when they opened that bag...

At any rate, his coat never looked close to that. He would occasionally get marble sized matts (especially near the armpits or tummy) where a brush skipped, but those were cut out with scissors. The same thing happens with my long-haired cat. But, if someone can't, for whatever reason, keep an animal's long coat from matting in an uncomfortable way, then it is time for a shave. Just leaving it is completely unacceptable to me personally, even if the rabbit is due for butchering. It's why you don't see any feral angoras hopping around. They become so matted that it becomes difficult and impossible to move, eat, defecate. Matting can cause irritation and sores on the skin as well. That looks like pretty severe matting to me. A lot of rehabs and zoos only feed frozen because it is actually often seen as cruel to stick a domesticated animal in an enclosed area with no chance of escape. I would think sticking a matted rabbit in there would not only raise eyebrows, but also be a concern to the animal being fed, as that is an abnormal amount of fur to down at once, and some animals will not pick around it.

I think reworking the caging system would have solved many time and sanitary issues. J-feeders, food hoppers, or other methods of feeding do a better job of keeping feces out of food. I use one of those bird suet holders to keep my rat's block diet in as rats won't eat food they defecate on, so it often wastes a lot of food (and money) to use bowl type methods. Same with hay being put in containers that only allow a few pieces to be pulled out or gnawed on at a time. I don't even use a bowl with just one rabbit, because they do just poop in it or tip it over. Even if an automatic watering system is out of reach financially, hanging bottles or hanging troughs (some really cheap yet sturdy plastic ones out there...I use them for my pigeons or else they end up drinking more feces than water) not only keep a constant supply of water that needs refilling less often, but also keeps that water clean. Drop pans make for easy cleaning, but you do have to clean them. The only enclosures I've seen easier than drop pans (though I HATE drop pans for guinea pigs because they play with their water and cause puddled sewage nastiness that has to be cleaned every day...prefer bedding for them) are sand filled ones that get raked/scooped like you would a kitty litter box and enclosures that you can either just hose out daily or have an area that poop drops down onto that can be hosed. The fan is coated in hair which seems like a fire hazard to me honestly. Shop vac for that one.

Many of the rabbits have a good luster to their coat and look healthy, which may indicate that the problems were recent. No way are the conditions acceptable to me though, even if the few photos were the only cases found. They would not be acceptable in a lab or in an accredited zoo just for comparison. I do debate whether the animals should have been seized, especially since it sounds like they were moved into hotter, more water deprived conditions, debate why the heck animal control thought the House Rabbit Society was a good source to call on for a situation that didn't include 'house bunnies', am still annoyed at how poorly this story was covered, and wonder about all the missing details on both sides.

PS, I may spot a watering spigot on the very right, though it is very different from the kind I usually see. Anyone recognize it as such?

 

[redhen]

Just disgusting..those poor rabbits. How sick and cruel to put keep an animal in those conditions....
I hope she NEVER gets them back.

 

[LAseramas KP]

check this one out sad ..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...285.html?ir=Crime#s332769&title=Feces_In_Cage

 

[dewey]

Quote:
Like I said, there's no excuse for those cage conditions...NONE...and just to clarify just in case it was not clear in my OP

......I didn't say that cages that filthy could be created in just a few days...no way that could possible...a few days left uncleaned will not create that situation...in no way did I imply that housing rabbits in those dirty conditions for ANY amount of time was acceptable, and as I said, an experienced breeder would know better, so there's no excuse whatsoever...reasons? possibly, but no excuses.

I'd find no excuse for the matted rabbits either but the article stated that the matted ones were turned into to her in that condition as unwanted by the previous owners and were destined as dinner for raptors. I understand pet people often get in over their heads with coated breeds of ANY animal...dogs, cats, and so on. No amount of blowing coat will create those types of mats if the animal is cared for properly by the pet owner. No excuses on that. Reasons, yes, excuses, no.

My base meat herd consists of around 50, not 200. Everything is done on a strict schedule to keep up with proper care. The only other 4 footed animals we've had on a scale of over 200+ has been cattle and calves up on the ranch and that's an entirely different situation in management. I enlist help as needed (again, rarely needed but this last couple of weeks something odd has been up in my back) and I make sure things are carried out to standards, including viewing video and pics to be sure things are carried out as needed. My rabbit housing is kept very clean and sanitary and personally I cannot imagine the cage conditions in those pics.

Having had food businesses for years and used to health dept regulations as a norm I might view acceptable sanitary conditions differently than some others (aka my helpers), even in the sanitary way my rabbits are processed...but either way, there's no excuse for unsanitary conditions for any animal, whether for meat use or pet.

As you said, the media is slanted, usually, yet most things eventually come out in the wash. The original stories of how the cages were clean and just had typical build up in the trays (not touching the wire floors of the cages) seems to conflict with the pics, and again, should never be part of a rabbit's environment. Some of the dishes shown look to have build up on them that would take some time...nothing any rabbit should be exposed to. Seriously, I do not 200 rabbits but my cages are cleaned daily as needed as are J feeders that even get a berry on them, no less when there's kits that like to get up on the feeders daily...all santized daily and replaced with fresh feeders...I know daily stuff like that is not needed but I like CLEAN, really clean.

We shall see how this plays out for her.

 

[dewey]

Raptors in rehab, at least here, as I imagine it is in most places, work up to live food no matter how cruel the public may think it to be (and most would consider it unbelievably cruel) nor how many eyebrows it may raise (it's done mostly out of site of the public). There's not been a need for live here for a bit of time for the one I donate to, but hair is usually not of any concern, live or frozen, and is often considered standard. A maimed rabbit (by mats or other causes, or via staff inflicted injury) that cannot easily escape is usually a part of their rehab as they work up to capturing robust animals in a contained area and so on. Are wildlife rehabs just different here??? Freshly dead, barely alive, frozen, or alive that they kill to freeze for later is standard here.

Yes, I, too, saw the water nipple in that pic. I can't imagine a breeder, even one with evil motives, using open bowl feeders since that would cut into their profits in a big way. One thing I didn't see in the filthy cages was spilled feed that would happen with open bowl feeders like that, which leads me to think those bowls were treat bowls or other...since otherwise there'd be all kinds of spilled feed in the trays.

I understand stacked cages with trays for compact housing if one has few rabbits or much help to keep them clean, but personally I have never, and will never have trays nor any solid bottom housing because it is unsanitary. I do know breeders with that many rabbits or more that use stacking cages, but they use shutes systems (not trays) that are mucked several times a year with waste sold for gardens.

With that many rabbits as she had the fan could get that way in just a few days. Like cages, torching fans (metal only, of course) is what I use and it should be done as needed, cages usually a couple of times a year but that requires extra cages for tranfers and extra people-power to move rabbits. The cages did not seem to to have terribly bad hair build up for coated breeds. Anyway, it's not an easy task and requires help with that many rabbits to torch cages (shop vacs could be used but I think most torch...fans not so much to do and it looks she had metal fans. My fans are cleaned at least a couple of time per week and I only have about 50 non coated stock.

From the motions that have been filed it seems as though the "house bunny" standards under which they were taken are being contested on grounds of lawful livestock use.

That a distressing environment was blatantly and without regard created for the animals by AC and that the animals were subjected to and moved to conditions that were far worse than the breeder had in place speaks volumes of their care and concern, but, sadly, it's not at all surprising for their M.O.

It's no wonder AC was trying to frantically do damage control via neutering them since they created the nightmare breeding environment, along with many other health issues that it seems they created.

 

[sommrluv]

I think my biggest issue with this whole thing is the conflicting information Debbie herself put out to the stress. If I were her lawyer I'd put a muzzle on her.

In one interview she stated that every cage was marked with pink or blue ribbon to notate male/female rabbits along with a card indicating name, age, last bred, etc.

There are no cards visible in the picture where you can see the majority of the cages. And while I might believe some organization group would remove them to take pictures, I don't believe that of any law enforcement officer.

She stated first that she & 4-H'ers are in there daily cleaning. Later she said she did a weekly maintenance routine. Whichever is true..those cages are not clean enough. Nowhere near.

She also stated on the radio that she was not embarrassed of the state of her barn, and that the amount of waste was normal for a few days. That rabbits get matted overnight and only if you had a large amount of livestock would you understand.


I still don't get the whole watering in cups thing going on there.

I'm embarrassed.

 

[punk-a-doodle]

Huh, where do you live by chance (just general country)? I'm in the US. The aviary I worked at, rehabs I've been to, and the zoo all will not live feed specifically due to public pressure as they rely on public funds. We did live feed crickets and roaches, but no one ever complains about those.

I remember being instructed that we were not allowed to use live fish both due to laws regarding fish that could potentially make their way into native water ways, and also because it was stated that there would be too many issues with the public. Some people would also freak when they saw the frozen chicken chicks or adult quail in the pens. They thought they were an exhibit bird that had been killed. XD I can't even tell you the comments fielded about the dead bunnies, I had several people just in one day go off at me about those. There's no way in heck a staff inflated injury on a live animal would have flown. Oh man, I would have hated to deal with the public comments on that one! I wonder if the less public rehabs are the ones who go to live prey? Makes more sense to me personally to ensure the bird is able to be released, though only healthy prey ultimately would make sense to me. Here are two more reasons I found quoted why some rehabs/zoos do not accept live. This is a response to someone who wanted to donate live sparrows:
"FYI- our local wildlife rehabbers and the zoo will not accept live HOSPs, EUSTs, or Norway rats. Live prey can injure their recuperating snakes and raptors plus they have a tendency of flying away which simply exacerbates an existing problem by introducing them to yet another area. We have to dispatch them first and package them properly before they will accept them. Perhaps if you are having issues dispatching them you could contact www.sialis.org and see if there is anyone in your area who would help you." Course, maybe they accept live prey of other species...it didn't say. Would seem odd though if they are concerned about prey-inflicted injuries.

I'm trying to figure it all out. In an old video the local (to her) news ran, she was filling the bowls with water, so it's confusing what their actual purpose was to me. Will have to pull up the link later, but if you search my posts in the old thread on this topic, it's posted there.

It was really disturbing to me personally to see them panting out in the sun and being moved to a metal trailer in the seizure videos. Definitely was not impressed with how they appeared to be transported and housed by those doing the seizing.

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

Quote:
Yea.